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D&D 5E Character play vs Player play

I don't want to write stories as a player. I show up to be entertained not to do the entertaining.


Here we are now, entertain us.....

I never show up as a player expecting to be entertained. I show up to play a game, to participate and have fun. I am a member of a group of people that are here to do this. Here is the secret of great games: if everyone comes together and does their best to entertain everyone else at the table, the fun rises exponentially. Instead of 5 expectant lumps just sitting there waiting to be entertained by one person (who may have had a rough day, be exhausted, etc) why not have EVERYONE contributing to making the game fun for all. This means being proactive as a player, entertaining the group with what you say and do, and providing opportunities for others to do likewise. There is a real difference in energy level for the group when everyone pitches in like this.
 

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Hussar

Legend
To be fair, just because [MENTION=6787650]emdw45[/MENTION] didn't mention his players' goals (so far as I can recall), doesn't mean they don't have some independent of the adventure opportunities the DM is offering as part of presenting a dynamic, changing setting. Perhaps that is why so many hooks are left dangling - the players are off doing their own thing, hooks be damned.

Whether or not leaving those hooks unresolved results in Very Bad Things for the world is irrelevant to whether a game is sandbox or not in my view. If anything it speaks to the PCs as protagonists and the only ones who can do anything to stop the villains from achieving their nefarious goals. That would simply be an established fact of the setting, not unlike magic or gravity existing. If Doctor Tendril completes his doomsday device and the city of Fort Castle is destroyed by malign entities from the Far Realm, then that's just something that has changed in the world the aftermath of which the PCs may or may not have to contend.

Kinda sorta. If the players, for example, want to spend time, I dunno, starting a bar in the city of Fort Castle, and if they ignore the plot hooks and Fort Castle will be destroyed by Doctor Tendril, there's a pretty strong push for the party to get involved with Doctor Tendril. IOW, because the DM has so many things going on, hooks can't be damned because any hook that is ignored may very well turn around and bite you on the ass.

IOW, the players are now pretty much obliged to deal with the DM's hooks before they contend with any of their own because the DM's hooks will make the PC's personal goals unachievable. Which is why I challenge the idea that it's really a sandbox when the DM has that many NPC's who have such large, campaign changing goals which, apparently, can only be dealt with by the PC's.

There's only so much time at the table. If the DM has ten different plot lines going on, there simply isn't any time for player driven content.

To me, a sandbox is largely player driven and DM reactive. The players want to do X, Y and Z, based on the characters they have created and whatever bells and whistles they want to play with in the setting. My character in a recent Dark Sun campaign wanted to restore his family's wealth and position and I managed to convince the rest of the party to hitch their wagon to my star. Much of the campaign has been driven by that with extremely little occurring outside of that primary goal.

Here's a way to think about it. For me, in a sandbox world, if the PC's didn't exist, the world would more or less continue the way it has been. The PC's are the destabilising force in the world. It is their goals and their attempts to achieve those goals that is going to reshape the world. In a more linear game, the DM sets goals for NPC's that will change the game world and the PC's are there to stop them - the PC's react to the DM, rather than the other way around.
 

I'm curious about this. Isn't pretty much anything the PCs are asked to do by anyone a "quest"? If the bartender says "Hey, could you clean my pantry? I'll give you 5 silver", it's technically a quest.

I considered elaborating on this when I originally said it, but I thought it might be off-topic. Now though I'll explain my take:

NPCs sometimes make requests. The requests don't come from me, they come from the NPCs. It's up to you what, if anything, you do about those requests. If you help someone out and they stiff you afterwards, or turn out to have been lying to you about the mission, or steal your money while you're gone--that's between you and the NPC. The DM has no stake in it, he just imposes the consequences and rewards XP whenever you overcome an obstacle towards your self-imposed goals. (E.g. if you want to build houses for orphans, I'll give you bonus XP for finding a source of wood, assuming it wasn't trivially easy.)

If the king asks you to solve a mystery, and you decide you'd rather frame the king, depose him, and take over, I'll grant you XP for that. I don't give quests, so you won't upset me by "doing it wrong."

I do try to give you interesting things to do and interact with, but they're not "quests" in the sense I think modern players are used to from video games and such.
 
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In most of my games ignoring things for extended periods of time causes entire cities to be burned to the ground by evil cultists or the world explodes. The situation is always life and death. Sitting around doing nothing gets you and everyone around you killed. Which is why if I narrated that they were done for the day, someone would get very angry at me if they didn't solve the mystery in time.

Mine too. This week one of the major tensions finally resolved itself: the invading army is gone, and the kingdom's capital is now uninhabitable due to 40,000 HP worth of cohesive, unified invading hobgoblins being replaced by 63,000 HP of armored, uncontrolled hobgoblin vampires (" vampire spawn" that is, but vampires as far as I'm concerned). To me that looks like a net loss--but I gave them XP for getting rid of the hobgoblins anyway!

I think it's more fun when the players create their own problems. I have no idea what they're going to do next session, but it will probably involve exploiting their spelljamming ship to get gold somehow. However it its possible they'll decide to deal with the vampires they basically created, instead. Who knows?
 

Which is the point I was trying to make way upthread when I said that [MENTION=6787650]emdw45[/MENTION]'s game wasn't what I think of when I think of sandbox. Since everything he talked about was DM generated, and nothing he mentioned was player generated, it doesn't look like a sandbox to me. I consider player agency to be the hallmark of a sandbox. Judging with the sliver of information I have about his campaign, I'd call Emdw45's game a linear game with a lot of lines. And since those DM generated plots will directly impact the PC's, the players don't really have the option of ignoring them and going off to do their own thing. They have to deal with those DM generated plots or very bad things will happen to the game world.

My best description would be a linear campaign made up of a number of linear (since they're time based, they have to be linear) plots running in parallel. Cool idea and probably a lot of fun. Certainly a ton of work has gone into it. But, not what I would call a sandbox.

You misunderstand me, sir. In a context where we're talking about having multiple unresolved mysteries in play simultaneously, of COURSE you're only going to hear about DM-generated content. Players don't make mysteries for themselves. The goblin orphanage started by the dragonborn PC won't get mentioned. Furthermore, you're assuming particular resolutions to those mysteries--like I'm expecting the PCs to tackle the illithid cultists in a particular way, or even at all. Nope.

At a meta level, all I've done is plant enough conflicts to give the PCs 20+ levels of experience and come out of it feeling like heroes instead of murderbots. There are bad guys they can engage with, and if they don't the bad guys will do bad things. I agree with you that player agency is the hallmark of a sandbox, and player agency is in fact my #1 priority. The campaign is not linear, nor even a collection of linear plots. It's just a collection of various bad guys doing bad things, and the PCs mostly ignoring those bad guys and going off the edge of the map so I extrapolate more bad guys there. And no, it's not really a ton of work. Maybe half an hour of prep time per week, plus thinking about things while driving and such.
 

Here's a way to think about it. For me, in a sandbox world, if the PC's didn't exist, the world would more or less continue the way it has been. The PC's are the destabilising force in the world. It is their goals and their attempts to achieve those goals that is going to reshape the world. In a more linear game, the DM sets goals for NPC's that will change the game world and the PC's are there to stop them - the PC's react to the DM, rather than the other way around.

I think the key difference between us is that you think in 3D and I think in 4D. In my game, if the PCs didn't exist, the world's history would stay the same, but it's not a static history/steady-state world. The PCs are constantly perturbing that history, even if they're just spelunking for gold. If not for the PCs, the kingdom's capital would be now ruled by hobgoblins, who grudgingly pay tribute to a dragon. Instead, due to the PCs the kingdom's capital is a blasted wasteland full of vampires, and the dragon isn't getting any tribute and has lost face with other dragons. Also the kingdom now has rediscovered spelljamming and has all the corresponding additional options, which they wouldn't otherwise have.
 
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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Kinda sorta. If the players, for example, want to spend time, I dunno, starting a bar in the city of Fort Castle, and if they ignore the plot hooks and Fort Castle will be destroyed by Doctor Tendril, there's a pretty strong push for the party to get involved with Doctor Tendril. IOW, because the DM has so many things going on, hooks can't be damned because any hook that is ignored may very well turn around and bite you on the ass.

I would suggest that the role of the DM is to set challenges between the PCs and their goals. That's the very heart of the game. The PCs want to start a bar in a city? City is threatened by super-villain. Succeed at thwarting the destruction of the city, get your bar. Setting a goal yourself or taking on a quest/objective the DM presents as a hook is the same thing - both are goals the players have chosen to pursue.

Of course, it should be noted that as a game of storytelling in worlds of sword and sorcery where the DM and players are tasked with telling an exciting story of bold adventurers confronting deadly perils, setting one's goals as becoming a barkeep seems a bit incongruous. A better example would be your character's goal of restoring your family's wealth and position - now my agenda as DM is to complicate that with challenges that help us create interesting emergent stories.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Here we are now, entertain us.....

I never show up as a player expecting to be entertained. I show up to play a game, to participate and have fun. I am a member of a group of people that are here to do this. Here is the secret of great games: if everyone comes together and does their best to entertain everyone else at the table, the fun rises exponentially. Instead of 5 expectant lumps just sitting there waiting to be entertained by one person (who may have had a rough day, be exhausted, etc) why not have EVERYONE contributing to making the game fun for all. This means being proactive as a player, entertaining the group with what you say and do, and providing opportunities for others to do likewise. There is a real difference in energy level for the group when everyone pitches in like this.

Yeah I have to admit that's a pretty insulting attitude. The "game" is made fun by everyone who participates. It's not a black and white situation where either someone is entertaining you or you are the entertainer. Everyone entertains everyone else by pulling together and creating a good social and gaming environment. If you want to be entertained, go watch Age of Ultron.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
If I remember correctly, the D&D 3e DMG characterized the DM as the "Master of Fun," the guy or gal tasked with the "job" of entertainment and making sure the players have fun. In D&D 4e, that changed to everyone's responsibility. I'm not sure what DMGs prior to D&D 3e said about this, but if anyone cut their teeth on or played/ran a lot of D&D 3e, I could see why they'd have the impression that the players are there to be entertained rather responsible for everyone else's entertainment as well.
 

pemerton

Legend
Isn't pretty much anything the PCs are asked to do by anyone a "quest"? If the bartender says "Hey, could you clean my pantry? I'll give you 5 silver", it's technically a quest.

I'm not sure how an entire campaign could avoid having any quests at all unless the DM refused to have any agency in the game at all.
I'm trying to think how many episodes in my 4e campaign (6+ years, currently 29th level) have resulted from NPCs making requests.

I can think of two.

The campaign started with the PCs meeting in a tavern (of course) and being recruited to perform a task (driving horses to market, I think) by a forester. The players knew I was using a module which at least one had a copy of himself. And they knew I had indicated that every PC must have a reason to be ready to fight goblins. So they knew that this was just a plot device to get the game moving. I can't remember what happened to the horses, but the PCs certainly never had anything to do with them!

The other one I can think of is a PC being tasked by his god to recover a lost artefact (which turned out to be the Rod of Seven Parts), but that was the player's idea so probably doesn't fit your definition of a quest.

A third one might have been when they went looking for the missing niece of the Baron, although it may be that they initiated that themselves - I can't remember now.

In any event, in a game in which the players are taking the lead, the GM's agency is in interposing opposition and driving towards conflict. Whereas the players provide the dramatic motivations for their PCs. This does not give the GM any lack of agency, and has nothing much in common with computing.

I guess I just like foreshadowing in my stories. I like stories that are unresolved but them pick up again later.
I think a lot of people like foreshadowing (maybe not [MENTION=66434]ExploderWizard[/MENTION]). But that is fairly orthogonal to the current discussion. It possible to generate foreshadowing without using the sort of heavy-handed style that the adventure you've described does.

Here is an example from my 4e game:

* The PCs travel temporarily into the past, and while there rescue a young apprentice from the mirror in which her crazed master had trapped her;

* Back in the present, the PCs see a series of family portraits on the wall of the Baron's hall - two of the women greatly resemble the rescued apprentice, although the one in the older portrait is quite a bit older than the apprentice was when she was rescued;

* The PCs learn that the older woman (the apprentice aged 50-ish?) was the Baron's grandmother, and that the more recent portrait is of his niece, who (i) happens to be engaged to marry the Baron's advisor, whom the PCs know to be a secret Vecna-worhsipper, and (ii) happens to be missing;

* The PCs track down the niece, thinking she's been kidnapped by undead and/or her fiance, only to learn that she is a necromancer who has accidentally revived Kas from torpor;

* The PCs defeat the niece, but save her from Kas's vengeance by striking a deal with him to track down the apprentice, who was the one who trapped him in a torpor.​

When the apprentice first appeared in the game, the Baron's niece had not been conceived of. When I introduced her as an off-screen NPC, I can't remember if I had the idea for Kas's role or not. The idea that Kas would ask them to hunt down the apprentice emerged in the course of play, as the PCs negotiated with him.

Another less intricate example:

* The PCs meet a friendly duergar and accompany her to the duergar hold. On the way, the tiefling PC cautions them that trafficking with devils will be their undoing - like the tieflings, they are a dying race;

* A couple of sessions later the duergar stronghold is destroyed, along with many of its inhabitants, by forces introduced into it by the chaos sorcerer PC, who had (only slightly inadvertently) called upon Pazrael/Pazuz.​

That one has irony mixed with its foreshadowing.

There is no necessary connection between foreshadowing and GM roadblocking, or similar uses of force, of the sort that you are describing in this module.

Isn't this the essence of virtually ALL mystery stories though?

Take for example: A murdered body is found. Who did it? The knife has a symbol that incriminates one person. But that person has no motive. Someone else really doesn't like the victim and has reason to see them dead. But they couldn't have done it, they were spotted across the house at the same time the murder took place. The clues don't seem to add up.

Then, one of the people involved messes up and changes part of their story. They said they were looking out the window but somehow they also saw someone else run out of the room on the opposite direction. Obviously, he is lying. Now that we know someone is lying, we know it is probably them.

But until that slip up happens, there's no real way to solve the mystery. There is just not enough information. The author of the story decides on just the right moment to reveal that last critical piece of information to let the reader or the watcher figure out the mystery.
I think in RPGing the notion of "just the right moment" has to be reversed. Rather than the GM withholding information or blocking the players "until the right moment", the GM should be ready to pull out all the stops at the moment the players put it all together and work out what's going on. That's what makes it the right moment.
 

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