D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[pemerton]

D&D in any edition isn't well designed for that kind of experience, IMXP. Character creation is too minute, adventures require too much ramp-up time, death isn't a speedbump, the narrative matters....outside of a one-off at a convention or something, I wouldn't expect D&D to give me that experience.

It sounds like your table has a pretty unique and particular playstyle.

The playstyle that [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] describes doesn't seem that unique to me. I think there's a long tradition, within the overall range of D&D play, of treating the game as a challenge, and of looking for rational tactical strategies within the parameters that the rules set for such a challenge. And even within this thread, we've seen more than one other poster (and I'm not including myself) taking an approach that's similar even if not identical.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I was going to respond to your whole post, but then I saw this:

The tactics are stating seem to indicate you haven't fought an adult dragon in its lair. The lairs we experienced were vast. Thousands of feet of exploration required, practically a dungeon in itself, some stocked with monsters. The entire area counting as the dragon's lair. He could do a lair action while you're walking down a hallway looking for him, seal you off from your skeletons, hit them with the breath weapon, wander off a while, rinse and repeat.

Cut the condescension please. You haven't "fought an adult dragon in its lair" either. Both of us deal with imaginary dragons out of the 5E Monster Manual, and while we may have different imaginations, if you think that your imagination or your DM's imagination is somehow more "real" than anyone else's, you are mistaken.

If you're not willing to discuss ideas on an equal footing there's no point in me responding to your points. If you expect me to continue the discussion, please apologize and rephrase your question more neutrally.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The playstyle that @Celtavian describes doesn't seem that unique to me. I think there's a long tradition, within the overall range of D&D play, of treating the game as a challenge, and of looking for rational tactical strategies within the parameters that the rules set for such a challenge. And even within this thread, we've seen more than one other poster (and I'm not including myself) taking an approach that's similar even if not identical.

Concur. My game doesn't focus on combat, but I nevertheless throw tons of Deadly+ encounters at my players just by virtue of following AD&D-style rules on Organization and # Appearing, and I can think of several other posters on these boards who do that too. The players then have the choice of overcoming the obstacle, running away, bluffing, surrendering, or dying. (David Grossman would call this fight/flight/posture/submit.)

There's really nothing Celtavian has described that would be out of place at my table except for the fact that he expects problems to be solved as "encounters" (i.e. in less than sixty seconds) instead of as role-playing experiences (i.e. in minutes or hours if necessary). Edit: oh! and the fact that his DM metagames the monsters with "as optimal as possible" tactics. I roleplay monsters, and smarter monsters use smart tactics but dumb monsters (like white dragons with Int 8) will be at best "cunning", and with no particular knowledge of what the PCs are capable of unless the PCs are famous.

 

[pemerton]

Concur.

You were definitely one of the posters I had in mind as similar, "even if not identical"!

 

[DaveDash]

So when my group plays an all thief campaign, and I tailor the campaign due to them not having a healer or a wizard....that's plot armor?

Yep.

I don't tailor campaigns to players. Ever.

Their fate is COMPLETELY in their own hands, and the dice.

When my guys hit level 20, which will be in the next 2 months, it will be a great achievement, our first ever D&D campaign to reach level 20. And one they made on their own backs.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

However, an all-thief group could certainly tailor the game to themselves by choosing objectives to pursue which matched their capabilities. It wouldn't work perfectly--sometimes you do have to bite the bullet and tackle something you're awful at--but if their fate is really in their own hands it should work pretty well, and it results in a campaign which is pretty different from your run-of-the-mill D&D campaign. And then a responsible DM will tailor his preparation to correspond with his PCs' likely actions, so to a certain extent you wind up tailoring things to your players' desires, as filtered through the lens of PC actions.

In other words, in an all-thief campaign, spending several days surveilling a mansion prior to breaking in would be totally normal and anticipated in DM preparations. In a regular D&D campaign that typically doesn't happen, although it could.

 

[Celtavian]

I was going to respond to your whole post, but then I saw this:



Cut the condescension please. You haven't "fought an adult dragon in its lair" either. Both of us deal with imaginary dragons out of the 5E Monster Manual, and while we may have different imaginations, if you think that your imagination or your DM's imagination is somehow more "real" than anyone else's, you are mistaken.

If you're not willing to discuss ideas on an equal footing there's no point in me responding to your points. If you expect me to continue the discussion, please apologize and rephrase your question more neutrally.

No, you will not receive an apology. I am not dealing with imaginary dragons out of the Monster Manual and theory-crafting strategies to defeat them. I am dealing with designed encounters in a module produced by a company licensed by WotC with vast dragon lairs. You seem to have no experience with this in 5E. What I stated was factual based on your stated tactics and not in anyway meant to be insulting.

I am telling you that in Tyranny of Dragons lairs were vast and the tactics you stated would not have worked due to the size of the lairs. If you have not experienced vast dragon the lairs present in Tyranny of Dragons, then you are generating tactics that do not fit the experience. Thus making your tactical advice unhelpful.

I am not an emotional person. I am not insulting you. Imagine you are talking to a Vulcan who is making statement that is factual to him. I based my response on your response. The tactics you stated in every single response of how to deal with the dragon would not have worked given the terrain circumstances. The idea that you think you can set up a Leomund's Hut within one move of the dragon outside of the lair continues to support my belief that you have no experience fighting 5E dragons in a vast dragon lair such as those in the Tyranny of Dragons module.

This whole explaining every little detail to anyone hopping in on this conversation and having them interpret what was stated as insulting or attempting to tell me how things should be played is not productive. I played a WotC licensed module with vast dragon lairs where the dragons had the advantage with melee martials as our main damage dealers. Fly was our best option. Due to the concentration mechanic, it severely limited my options. This is not disputable and is based on the game mechanics. Whether or not you find this boring is disputable and a matter of personal taste. I found it boring.

I'm not going to apologize because someone interprets something as an insult and starts a side tangent on a message board. That behavior is getting incredibly tiresome. I don't feel any emotion whatsoever in these discussions. I hold no grudges. I have no interest in responding to emotionally based arguments or statements where the other person does not seem to acknowledge whether a statement is factual. Did you ask yourself, "Was what he said factual? Do I have any experience fighting dragons in vast lairs in 5E? Have I played Tyranny of Dragons?" If the answer is yes, then offer the experience. If the answer is no, then accept that you may not be able to offer helpful advice in this discussion until you have more information to go on and ask for that information if you wish to continue the discussion. Otherwise, we can both move along. It's not important enough for either of us to get our noses out of joint.

 

[cmad1977]

You guys are really embarrassing yourselves. It's really kind of shameful.

 

[Celtavian]

Yeah, that's not the reason I play D&D. If I want to conquer an insurmountable challenge I can play Super Meat Boy and have a lot of fun dying over an over again. D&D in any edition isn't well designed for that kind of experience, IMXP. Character creation is too minute, adventures require too much ramp-up time, death isn't a speedbump, the narrative matters....outside of a one-off at a convention or something, I wouldn't expect D&D to give me that experience.



It sounds like your table has a pretty unique and particular playstyle. Like, those XP budgets exist for a reason, and you have to presume that by ignoring them and shooting for the moon that you're going to distort the intended experience. That's not a problem, it's just not like you can expect that everyone is distorting the experience like that. You're playing under some pretty special house conditions, and the fact that this tweaks your experience shouldn't be a surprise, and you shouldn't then presume that your experience is common, ESPECIALLY when it deviates from the RAW so significantly.



Yeah, under those circumstances, I'd just die. I mean, okay, TPK, mission accomplished DM, you killed everyone with your grossly out-of-whack encounter balance, hope that was what you were looking for, and enjoy your trophy. Now for this new campaign, I've got something I want to try...

I don't think anyone plays the game the same way. That's why these discussions go off in unforeseen directions as everyone speaks from the point of view of their experience. None of them exactly like the other. At best you find some with somewhat similar experiences that can at least relate, but rarely exactly alike.

 

[Hussar]

No, you will not receive an apology. I am not dealing with imaginary dragons out of the Monster Manual and theory-crafting strategies to defeat them. I am dealing with designed encounters in a module produced by a company licensed by WotC with vast dragon lairs. You seem to have no experience with this in 5E. What I stated was factual based on your stated tactics and not in anyway meant to be insulting.

/snip

OTOH, both Kamikaze Midget and myself have been playing a 5e conversion of Dragonlance for the past six or so months. We've had numerous dragon encounters with dragons both large and small, in lair and not. Does that mean we get to contribute here?

Because, [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION], if all you are talking about are the encounters found in a single module series, then how are any of your points valid outside of those specific encounters? It cuts both ways. You are the one claiming that Fly is an absolute requirement when facing dragons. That thrown weapons for Str based fighter types just won't cut it, no other spells will work, and only the experience that you had is valid.

Do you not see how unbelievably arrogant that comes across as? Do you not understand why you are getting such push back?