D&D 5E So, 5e OGL

[delericho]

Additionally, why would you have to get a lawyer to vet every single product? Wouldn't getting a lawyer consist of handing the lawyer the 3.5 SRD and OGL and then the 5e rule books and asking the lawyer what terms you can't use?

I thought the $700 figure was based on ~3 hours of consultation. Simply reading all that material is going to take way more than 3 hours!

For example, Advantage is obviously not covered by the SRD, so, you'd need to use a different term, like tactical advantage (no caps) and you'd be good.

I'd be extremely surprised. 5e has deliberately chosen to use naturalistic language in its description of the rules, hence the use of 'advantage', 'reactions', and 'contests'. Which makes for nice elegant rules, but also makes it much harder for them to protect them - in all three cases, they're just common English words.

So if a supplement simply states "roll with advantage" without reference to what that means, I don't see how WotC can claim infringement - the reader knows how to put that into practice in-game, but the writer isn't violating any copyright here.

(Under the circumstances I'd best make it clear: IANAL.)

 

[prosfilaes]

Additionally, why would you have to get a lawyer to vet every single product? Wouldn't getting a lawyer consist of handing the lawyer the 3.5 SRD and OGL and then the 5e rule books and asking the lawyer what terms you can't use?

That is the type of stuff that copyright law does not care about. Just because one person uses the term "muggles" doesn't stop someone else from using the term. The OGL is not particularly clear here, in my opinion; I'm not sure that changing the name from Advantage is necessary, nor that changing the name would sufficient.

What else would you need to check?

Stuff like the examples I brought up; plotlines, characters, cultures, stuff that's all traditionally copyrightable. Where is the line between the 3E ettercap and the 5E ettercap, and have you crossed it? Where is the line between the 1E/2E kobold and 3E kobold, and are you using stuff from 1E? Looking at the SRD kobold, it leaves many kobold traits unspecified, implied at best; a lawyer doesn't have the time to draw out all the implications of having egg-laying, dragon-associated kobolds (not technically SRD traits) in a comparison of maybe 500 pages of SRD with 700 pages of 5E. An excellent well-paid lawyer might want to read "Tucker's kobolds", Dragon Mountain, the Complete Book of Humanoids, Races of the Dragons, etc., to see if you're treading too close to WotC-copyrighted expression, but your lawyer probably doesn't have the time to consider kobolds in particular if you're tossing everything at them on a budget.

To a large extent, I think all this talk about lawyers misses some of the point. No company wants to get into a lawsuit, and a WotC that has released an open license for 5E has signaled their intentions to work with companies wanting to produce 5E material outside of a specific contract. And I'm pretty sure that courts are going to be less lenient on reusers pushing the limits of the 3E OGL, but less lenient on WotC if there's a new license they wrote inviting people to use 5E. A lawyer working for you can't take remotely the risk away that WotC can by simply releasing a new license.

 

[delericho]

An excellent well-paid lawyer might want to read "Tucker's kobolds", Dragon Mountain, the Complete Book of Humanoids, Races of the Dragons, etc., to see if you're treading too close to WotC-copyrighted expression...

Yep. And if you're digging into very early Dragon material there are even questions over just how much of it WotC themselves own (since in some cases TSR bought only limited rights, and the contracts aren't always available, even to WotC - one of the issues associated with the "Dragon Archive").

To a large extent, I think all this talk about lawyers misses some of the point. No company wants to get into a lawsuit...

Very true. The most likely scenario is that WotC would send a C&D and the product would be pulled immediately. As you note, WotC don't particularly want a lawsuit, and you'd have to be very sure of yourself to want to contest them.

a WotC that has released an open license for 5E has signaled their intentions to work with companies wanting to produce 5E material outside of a specific contract.

Indeed. And, in fact, IIRC they have actually indicated the opposite - I can't now find the relevant tweet, but I thought I'd seen one from a WotC rep indicating that they'd rather people take time to understand the system as-is for the moment, with a view to being ready when WotC do eventually release it under OGL. But I might, of course, be misremembering.

It's not entirely unreasonable to ask how long we should be expected to wait out of respect for that request... but equally it's entirely WotC's choice when (or indeed if) to open the system up.

A lawyer working for you can't take remotely the risk away that WotC can by simply releasing a new license.

Yep. WotC releasing under the OGL would be better for all concerned - 3pp then get to publish in safety, while WotC get to indicate exactly what they want people to play with and what they want to reserve. (The downside being that if they consider too many books of any sort as being bad for the game, then they may well want to discourage any OGL work as far as possible.)

 

[aramis erak]

Yep. And if you're digging into very early Dragon material there are even questions over just how much of it WotC themselves own (since in some cases TSR bought only limited rights, and the contracts aren't always available, even to WotC - one of the issues associated with the "Dragon Archive").



Very true. The most likely scenario is that WotC would send a C&D and the product would be pulled immediately. As you note, WotC don't particularly want a lawsuit, and you'd have to be very sure of yourself to want to contest them.



Indeed. And, in fact, IIRC they have actually indicated the opposite - I can't now find the relevant tweet, but I thought I'd seen one from a WotC rep indicating that they'd rather people take time to understand the system as-is for the moment, with a view to being ready when WotC do eventually release it under OGL. But I might, of course, be misremembering.

It's not entirely unreasonable to ask how long we should be expected to wait out of respect for that request... but equally it's entirely WotC's choice when (or indeed if) to open the system up.



Yep. WotC releasing under the OGL would be better for all concerned - 3pp then get to publish in safety, while WotC get to indicate exactly what they want people to play with and what they want to reserve. (The downside being that if they consider too many books of any sort as being bad for the game, then they may well want to discourage any OGL work as far as possible.)

The problem with the Dragon Archive wasn't the articles... it was the comics. Specifically KODT. Settling with KenzerCo was the only settlement needed to pull it from distribution. That a couple others may have been similar is irrelevant. They settled and the settlement included killing the sales.

 

[delericho]

The problem with the Dragon Archive wasn't the articles... it was the comics. Specifically KODT. Settling with KenzerCo was the only settlement needed to pull it from distribution. That a couple others may have been similar is irrelevant. They settled and the settlement included killing the sales.

Not quite - before they even produced it there was discussion over whether it could be done at all and also why it included things like ads (when those were largely for products that were no longer available). At which point it was noted that several of the contracts weren't available. WotC believed, therefore, that they could do a digital reprint of the magazines but couldn't do any sort of an edit on them because then they'd fall afoul of IP ownership questions.

The issue with the comics, and the Kenzer settlement, came later, and is probably based on those contracts covering first printing only, or something of that sort.

 

[Mark CMG]

Day One of the WotC Gen Con OGL Announcement Watch has come and gone. And so begins Day Two . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RM7cQCC4sU

 

[Umbran]

Day One of the WotC Gen Con OGL Announcement Watch has come and gone.

I think someone had mentioned that WOtC had not booked any time appropriate for announcements in this GenCon. So, your wait is likely in vain.

 

[Umbran]

Indeed. And, in fact, IIRC they have actually indicated the opposite - I can't now find the relevant tweet, but I thought I'd seen one from a WotC rep indicating that they'd rather people take time to understand the system as-is for the moment, with a view to being ready when WotC do eventually release it under OGL. But I might, of course, be misremembering.

I remember the same thing.

And, you know, I'm okay with it. It makes sense in the sense of really getting a feel for how the rules as written work. With their regular polling, it gives time to determine what the players want beyond the core rules, and so on. Anyone developing on it after such a period could be expected to have a much better grasp of the rules.

It also makes sense from a business standpoint. If they want to extend the lifetime of the game, make the edition treadmill run slower, delaying 3pp makes a lot of sense. Eventually, when they open it up, there will be a renewed interest in the game, and a sales boost of the core rules, right? So, of course, you don't do that until after the initial burst of sales has dropped off.

It's not entirely unreasonable to ask how long we should be expected to wait out of respect for that request...

This is business. Respect doesn't enter into it

But really, asking that question is equivalent to asking, "When should we expect the license?" Which we've asked ad nauseum already. If they are thinking of using it as I've described, to extend the revenue stream, they won't be able to answer it, because they'll pull the trigger based on sales rates, not based on calendar dates.

I just wish they'd open up for adventure content. I don't need rules supplements yet, but adventures would be nice.

 

[Morrus]

Yeah, I'm not sure where/when they would make such an announcement. There aren't any panels or such they're doing this year.

 

[TerraDave]

They are doing "office hours".

Someone could just ask, and they could say "ya, we are going to do it".

I am sure this will happen.