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D&D 5E Assassinate
- Thread starter Jaracove
- Start date
GMforPowergamers
Legend
ok, that can work with a 10ft move... what if you open the cabnit and 'suprise' stab? I read the rules very different then you do, and surprise doesn't work in any game I know in real space the way you say... every DM I know agrees with me, so no there is no GOOD reason for me to change the way I read it, especially when it works at our tables...
edit: instead of arguing try this... explain to me why it is your idea of how assassinate works would do one of the following 1) make my players have more fun consistently, or 2) make the table flow easier consistently. for bonus points try both... because so far in 11ish level I have yet to see it ever slow my game down, or not be fun at the table...
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pming
Legend
Hiya!
Ahhh... I think I see what you're saying. Basically, the assassin jumps out, completely surprising the wizard. Initiative is rolled. Now...
(A) The Assassin rolls higher. He strikes the wizard who does NOT get his Shield spell up because he is surprised and lost initiative. Lets call this "Total Surprise".
(B) The Assassin rolls lower. The wizard goes first...and does nothing "Actionable" because he can't; but, the Shield spell is a reaction, so on his "action" he does nothing, but his "reaction" he casts Shield. The Assassin now goes and has to hit the wizards normal AC +5 for Shield. Lets call this "Partial Surprise".
Is that how you're interpreting it? Situation B? I could play in a game that interpreted it that way. However, I would also expect the DM to entertain certain situations where other "flick of the fingers" type actions that aren't spells could also be performed. For example, a horrible 'invisible stalker' type creature is chasing a PC in a dungeon. The PC runs to a room where there is a portcullis with a simple toothed-wheel that raises/lowers the portcullis. The PC runs through and wants to flick the latch on the wheel, instantly releasing the portcullis that would come crashing down. If the DM works 'surprise' this way, I would have no problem using the same rule because, well, that's what the ruling is saying "a quick flick of motion". I would have a problem with a DM saying "no" to this, because then it becomes an unbalanced ruling... unless the DM spelled out during that initial ruling "This ONLY applies to the Shield spell". But then any other spell that comes out, or special monster ability, or anything else, really, that tries to have the same "casting time" statement as Shield...that would require another look at the ruling. IMHO.
I have no problem with "unique" situation rulings. But they have to be unique. If there are other spells (I haven't looked/read through them all) that have the same sort of "reaction" type casting time, then that interpretation combined with Surprise rules needs to be used in every situation that fits that 'description' (re: "just a flick of the fingers").
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Ahhh... I think I see what you're saying. Basically, the assassin jumps out, completely surprising the wizard. Initiative is rolled. Now...
(A) The Assassin rolls higher. He strikes the wizard who does NOT get his Shield spell up because he is surprised and lost initiative. Lets call this "Total Surprise".
(B) The Assassin rolls lower. The wizard goes first...and does nothing "Actionable" because he can't; but, the Shield spell is a reaction, so on his "action" he does nothing, but his "reaction" he casts Shield. The Assassin now goes and has to hit the wizards normal AC +5 for Shield. Lets call this "Partial Surprise".
Is that how you're interpreting it? Situation B? I could play in a game that interpreted it that way. However, I would also expect the DM to entertain certain situations where other "flick of the fingers" type actions that aren't spells could also be performed. For example, a horrible 'invisible stalker' type creature is chasing a PC in a dungeon. The PC runs to a room where there is a portcullis with a simple toothed-wheel that raises/lowers the portcullis. The PC runs through and wants to flick the latch on the wheel, instantly releasing the portcullis that would come crashing down. If the DM works 'surprise' this way, I would have no problem using the same rule because, well, that's what the ruling is saying "a quick flick of motion". I would have a problem with a DM saying "no" to this, because then it becomes an unbalanced ruling... unless the DM spelled out during that initial ruling "This ONLY applies to the Shield spell". But then any other spell that comes out, or special monster ability, or anything else, really, that tries to have the same "casting time" statement as Shield...that would require another look at the ruling. IMHO.
I have no problem with "unique" situation rulings. But they have to be unique. If there are other spells (I haven't looked/read through them all) that have the same sort of "reaction" type casting time, then that interpretation combined with Surprise rules needs to be used in every situation that fits that 'description' (re: "just a flick of the fingers").
^_^
Paul L. Ming
pming
Legend
Hiya!
Ok, just got out of the bathroom...took my PHB for some quick skimming of Casting Time spells with "1 reaction". Reading the wording for things like Counterspell, Shield, and Feather Fall... it reads like the caster has no choice. They state "...which you take when [trigger]". To me, that means it's "automatic". It makes sense on one hand, but on the other it would mean that if you take a spell of that level, any and every time that situation comes up and you have a slot you could use for it, you do...until you have no more slots available for that spell level. It's "automatic".
However, reading the description of Reaction on pg 190, it sounds here like you are "allowed" to do it, or "when you take...", implying choice.
Interesting little thing to think about at any rate.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Ok, just got out of the bathroom...took my PHB for some quick skimming of Casting Time spells with "1 reaction". Reading the wording for things like Counterspell, Shield, and Feather Fall... it reads like the caster has no choice. They state "...which you take when [trigger]". To me, that means it's "automatic". It makes sense on one hand, but on the other it would mean that if you take a spell of that level, any and every time that situation comes up and you have a slot you could use for it, you do...until you have no more slots available for that spell level. It's "automatic".
However, reading the description of Reaction on pg 190, it sounds here like you are "allowed" to do it, or "when you take...", implying choice.
Interesting little thing to think about at any rate.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
That's how I interpret it. The rules are pretty clear the reaction is allowed once the surprised being's turn has passed.
You definitely have a choice. The wording is just describing when it occurs. There are only a handful of reaction timed spells, but there are some class abilities that can also act as a reaction.
I'm not saying to change your game. Use what works for you.
I am saying it's clear from the rules that initiative plays at least some role in mitigating surprise because surprised beings can take reactions after their turn in initiative has passed.
My table has been playing this way and they seem to like it. If you follow the rules as written (Not saying you have to. There are several rules I ignore) then initiative will already be affecting your assassins because of the first part of the assassinate ability, namely whether or not they get advantage, is dependent on whether or not the target has taken a turn in combat. If you combine that with the second half of the assassinate ability, namely critical damage against surprised opponents, it plays pretty cleanly.
Here's what we do:
PC party is hidden, assassin (and party) announces they wish to attack monsters. Monsters are surprised.
Roll initiative.
1st round:
Players and monsters take turns in initiative order as normal. (Monsters cannot move or take actions, but can take reactions to things that happen after their turn. Assassins either get advantage + crit if they are attacking before their target's turn, or attack normally otherwise.)
2nd: round:
Normal round.
That's pretty clean and simple and the group thinks it makes narrative sense.
The 10' move is irrelevant. Even at close quarters, a faster initiative would mean the target sees the attack coming. He is still surprised and he can't move or attack, but he would be able to take a reaction if he has one available and the assassin's attack becomes a normal attack instead of a lethal advantage+crit attack.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
you saying it's clear is pretty funny because 54 pages in we don't all agree... if nothing else you must admit it must not be too clear, because I still think I am using the rules as written in my games, and so do you, and the rules are different.
When surprise ends doesn't seem to be 100% clear to some people.
What is crystal clear is when a character can take reactions, and that is what he was saying.
If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.
Is the rule for surprise right out of the book, it doesn't get any clearer than that.
By the rules.
1. No attacks outside of initiative.
2. At the start of combat everyone involved in the combat rolls for initiative.
3. Some of those creatures might be surprised, if they are they can't take any actions when their turn comes up in initiative or move, before and during their turn they can't take reactions, immediately after their turn they can now take reactions.
4. You can surprise someone, and because they roll a higher initiative than you they take a turn before you do and by the time you act they can use reactions like cast shield.
None of the above is up for debate because those rules are all clearly spelled out in the game.
What 54+ pages of debate are about is when does the surprised character stopped being surprised because that is important to how a single feature of the assassin subclass interacts with all of this, that is all.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
Close but not quite. The only difference in how I read it is that in Situation B the wizard casts Shield on the assassin's turn because the trigger for him to use his reaction to cast that particular spell is that the assassin's attack is a 'hit' against the wizard's normal AC. The resulting bonus to AC is then applied against the original attack because the spell is thrown up instantaneously.
This sounds like a case where the object interaction rule comes into play allowing the PC to affect one feature of the environment as part of his move or action, in this case his move. It's more flexible than a reaction because it doesn't have a specified trigger, while at the same time it has to happen on the PC's turn, because that's when the PC is performing the movement of which this minor action is a part. In this case the PC would still have his one reaction to use at some other point in the round, if circumstance called for it.
On the other hand, if the PC wanted to move up to the wheel on his turn, but then wait for the creature to be directly under the portcullis before he flicked the switch, crushing the invisible stalker Rancor-style, he could take the Ready action on his turn, specifying that he will flick the switch when the creature stops directly under the portcullis to inspect some distracting item he has dropped there for this purpose. The readied action is then accomplished by the PC using his reaction when the trigger occurs, i.e. when the creature comes into position on its turn. Accomplishing this would use up both the PC's action and his reaction.
Each spell that can be cast as a reaction has a specified trigger that is unique to that spell. In fact, anything you can do as a reaction has a specific circumstance in which it can be done. The opportunity attack is the most common reaction and can only happen when a creature moves out of reach. You must also set your own trigger for a readied action, because it is accomplished by using your reaction. You get one reaction per round.
You always have the choice whether to use your reaction or not. The spell descriptions are telling you what the triggers are for using those particular spells, but the nature of a reaction is that when the trigger occurs you have a choice as to whether to use your reaction to cast that spell, or to save your reaction to possibly do something else, like make an opportunity attack or complete a readied action.
So, to get back on topic, the wizard doesn't have to cast Shield, but if he doesn't then it's certain the assassin will be able to roll for damage.
clearstream
(He, Him)
Setting aside my prejudice from 3rd edition, I feel like RAW is implying a kind of surprised condition that lasts until the end of a surprised creature's first turn. That seems right because all the consequences of that condition are done with at that point for that creature. Thereafter they can react, put up Shields... whatever. As for when you first take your turn - while surprised you do take your turn on your initiative count, but you can't use it to take any actions. Such RAI interacts extremely well with conceiving surprise as a condition that lasts until the end of your first turn.
For the sake of argument let's say all that's correct. If so, then in the best case for the rogue she surprises her foe and rolls higher initiative. So she attacks with advantage and crits if hitting. Or she surprises her foe but does not roll higher initiative. Her target in this case is no longer surprised after his turn and can now react so she cannot assassinate him. Or she does not surprise her foe, but she does roll higher. She more-or-less comes straight at him but her speed and skill give her an advantage.
How does that all narrate?
First case - DM "With utter silence and complete precision you take a clean shot"
Second case - DM "The taut string of your crossbow creaks slightly as you go to fire it, and the wizard is just quick enough to avoid a clean shot.
Third case - DM "You reveal yourself to fire in one clean movement. The wizard clearly sees you but he's slower than you are. Giving you advantage."
Others will think of their own narration, but my point is really that none of these cases are hard to narrate. Could I suggest instead that it is a matter of approach? The problem is created only if you've chosen what happens before seeing what the dice decide.
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