D&D 5E What about a Shapeshifter class?

[lowkey13]

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[Minigiant]

To me, Rage and High Strength based features are more iconic to the barbarian than the d12.

Strength Focus
Rage
Good with Strength based weapons (great weapons, spears, hand axes, javelins)
Viability when not in heavy armor
THEN d12

It was less "barbarian got a d12" and more "Barbara tougher than fighter"

But its no biggie. I could drop the HD to d8 and let the shapeshifter self-heal 3*level HP. Shapeshifters in fantasy regrow limbs, right. But then its a MONK.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Ryuujin]

More or less liking the look so far, would like to see more rules, more invocations, and obviously more levels.

This is one thing that has upset me about 3.x, 4e, Pathfinder, and obviously 5e. There is no Shapeshifting class. The Druid is more of a spellcaster than shapeshifter, and its spells are better than wild shape. Even at transforming. I want a non spellcasting shapeshifter that is actually better at shapeshifting than a Druid. And you know what? A spellless Shapeshifter was one of the most requested things in Pathfinder, and a lot of people were disappointed when the books with new classes came out that did not have one.

That said I absolutely dislike Skin of Steel. With a name like that I was expecting something else, instead of a thing that will pretty much never be used. People don't generally take the Dodge action unless they can do it as a bonus action, or are moving up and have no chance of actually attacking.

EDIT: Actually with the post above me a way around it would be if you picked the archetype at 1st level then maybe the Hit Die type could actually be determined by archetype? Also it is kind of funny that all of a sudden at level 3 the Hulking Shapeshifter removes their armor.

Also that reminds me one of the features adds Con mod to slam damage, but do they still use Strength for attack and damage and Con is just added on top of that? Are they going to be even more MAD than Barbarians in wanting Strength for attack and damage, Con for well everything it benefits especially with the Hulking archetype that adds it to AC, Dex for AC, and Cha for some stuff because it seems to be somewhat important.

 

[Minigiant]

Heh. You wanted constructive feedback! I'm just pointing out the HD are something that is intrinsic to the class structure, but often ignored. And there's a pretty, pretty, pretty strict hierarchy. TBH, I expect there were debates at WoTC about giving the Barbarian d12 instead of d10.

But yeah, it seems to me that:
Non-fighting = d6
Fighting = d8
Martial = d10
Tough guy = d12

So the d12 for a Barbarian (over and above the fighting characters, like Clerics and Monks, and even above the martial characters like Fighters(!), Rangers, and Paladins) is kind of special. IMO. You should only give that to a class concept that, like the Barbarian, is supposed to be a meat shield.

"Don't talk. Must kill orc."

And I appreciate the criticism. As the class is still in playtest phase, things could change.
Dropping their HD could be one solution, but they need something. You're not allowed to suck in combat by default.

In defense, it's either HD, AC, or Self Heal. For offense it's damage.

Gotta pick one.

.

EDIT: Actually with the post above me a way around it would be if you picked the archetype at 1st level then maybe the Hit Die type could actually be determined by archetype? Also it is kind of funny that all of a sudden at level 3 the Hulking Shapeshifter removes their armor.

Also that reminds me one of the features adds Con mod to slam damage, but do they still use Strength for attack and damage and Con is just added on top of that? Are they going to be even more MAD than Barbarians in wanting Strength for attack and damage, Con for well everything it benefits especially with the Hulking archetype that adds it to AC, Dex for AC, and Cha for some stuff because it seems to be somewhat important.

With the Hulking Shapeshifter, I was using the Unarmed Defense as a bonus option to high Con races. But I am noticing the MAD problems at my table. That's the other reason why I did d12 HD as default.

Am also trying to make mutliclassing not bad nor overpowered. I want a SS/rogue, SS/Monk, and SS/barbarian to work.

I am up for suggestions.

 

[lowkey13]

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[EzekielRaiden]

I hear you, but "not allowed to suck in combat by default" does not equal d12 hit dice. Paladins, Rangers, and Fighters do not "suck in combat by default" and they have d10. Clerics and Monks, for that matter, do not suck in combat by default, and they have d8. It's a question of balance- not just for the class, but between classes. That's often an issue for homebrew classes (I want my class to have X awesome feature, but I also want to make sure it can do Y, and it wouldn't be fair if it also couldn't do Z). It may also depend on how combat-heavy your campaign is. Right now, it looks to me like this is a class that is awesome at a few too many pillars.

Perhaps the d12 die could be restricted to a specific subclass? We already have an official subclass that just gets straight-up bonus HP (Dragon Sorcerer) and a playtest subclass even broke the mold with 2d6 HP. So it's not unprecedented that one subclass, as part of its features, gets a higher HD than others.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Minigiant]

I hear you, but "not allowed to suck in combat by default" does not equal d12 hit dice. Paladins, Rangers, and Fighters do not "suck in combat by default" and they have d10. Clerics and Monks, for that matter, do not suck in combat by default, and they have d8. It's a question of balance- not just for the class, but between classes. That's often an issue for homebrew classes (I want my class to have X awesome feature, but I also want to make sure it can do Y, and it wouldn't be fair if it also couldn't do Z). It may also depend on how combat-heavy your campaign is. Right now, it looks to me like this is a class that is awesome at a few too many pillars.

Well I'm trying balance it with a changeling druid if spell-less

A 5th level changeling druid has

+1 Dex
+1 Cha
1 Ability Score Improvement
Shapechanger at will
Two skill proficiencies from class
Proficiency in Deception
Wild Shape twice per short rest
Spells 4/3/2
3 Cantrips


If I strip out the last 3 and the racial bonuses to ability and skill and replace it with human features, what else can I add?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Well, as a homebrew, it can have whatever. Mechanics, in the end, are whatever the group thinks is fun. If the group wants the shapeshifter to have 2d10 HD, and it works for them, then it works for them.

But you'll note that both the Barbarian and the (unofficial) playtest Ranger subclass are both very constrained in their powers - since they don't cast spells and are considered "non-magical." This ... seems a little different. I would also add that I wasn't the only person who immediately noted issues with having the (unofficial) Ranger subclass get 2d6 HD.

It may seem like a small thing, but I don't think it is in terms of overall game balance. If you're saying, for example, that this magical shapeshifter is as powerful a melee fighter as, say, a Fighter, then that means it's d10.

I think the bigger point is more that it seems unlikely that the shapeshifter could continue to wear armor while in their various "forms." The Barbarian has 1d12 HP per level in part because it's expected to not wear armor. That's part of why I made the analogy to the Dragon Sorcerer; 2 more faces on the hit die is equivalent, on average, to +1 HP per level. Both the Barbarian and the Sorcerer get bonuses to defenses (Sorcerer is 13+Dex, Barb is 10+Dex+Con) and bonus HP (+1 per level vs. next-higher die over Fighters). The Barbarian further gets resistance to all normal weapon damage (bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing) while Raging.

Looking over the actual stuff, this seems to bear out--the class can only wear light armor, and the stated subclass gets the Barbarian armor boost (AC = 10+Dex+Con when not wearing armor). Since the shapeshifting doesn't appear to grant any further defenses*, it would seem (to me) that the proposed class is actually less well-defended than the Barbarian, since it doesn't even have the option of wearing medium armor and doesn't get the damage resistance boost from Rage.

*Hardening both arms does give +1 AC, but the class can't use shields at all, so it's only a minor buff IMO.