D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Noctem]

This I can agree with. However as disintegrate is the active effect and wild shape is the reactive one, I'd have disintegrate go first. If I didn't know about the RAI that is.

You have absolutely no ground to stand on to make this claim, which is what I pointed out in my other post. You are deciding what the RAW is without discussion or listening to what the lead dev of the game is explaining to you. That's a mistake. There are no rules which list resolution order. Wake up.

 

[Maxperson]

You have absolutely no ground to stand on to make this claim, which is what I pointed out in my other post. You are deciding what the RAW is without discussion or listening to what the lead dev of the game is explaining to you. That's a mistake. There are no rules which list resolution order. Wake up.

Completely false. I didn't make a claim.

Also, in my other post I laid out the facts and they don't support your invented language that unwinds things. Even Crawford wasn't presumptuous enough to tell me that RAW said something other than what I have been saying. He was very, very careful to be clear that he was speaking about RAI.

 

[Noctem]

lol k seriously? Quoting here:

"However as disintegrate is the active effect and wild shape is the reactive one, I'd have disintegrate go first. If I didn't know about the RAI that is."

Here you directly say which of the two game elements in question is reactive and which is active, you have no grounds to make this claim. You then claim that based on this you would have disintegrate have priority, again without anything to back up your claim. However since we have a dev response to tell us exactly how these features work we know you're incorrect. This is just one of the many claims you've made in this thread, like how whatever you say is what the RAW is regardless of what other people point out to you from the rules text. You just dismiss that text and say you're right and everyone else is wrong.

Anyway, I can see the kind of bs this is going to turn into and I've done this with people on the WOTC forums for hundreds of posts already. I'm not doing it again here. You enjoy claiming that whatever you say is the RAW, i'll move on now.

 

[Maxperson]

lol k seriously? Quoting here:

"However as disintegrate is the active effect and wild shape is the reactive one, I'd have disintegrate go first. If I didn't know about the RAI that is."

Here you directly say which of the two game elements in question is reactive and which is active, you have no grounds to make this claim.

Reality and how active/reactive works gives me the grounds. Disintegrate is acting upon the druid whose wild shape ability is reacting to it. If you can't see and understand that, you need more help than I can provide to you.

You then claim that based on this you would have disintegrate have priority, again without anything to back up your claim.

That's not a claim. That's a fact. Based on how reality works, I would have the active effect have priority over the reactive one.

However since we have a dev response to tell us exactly how these features work we know you're incorrect.

No dev has chimed on on whether disintegrate is active or reactive when used on wild shape, nor do we need one to. No dev has chimed in on how RAW works between disintegrate and wild shape. We only have a dev stating RAI.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

So...some people seem to be arguing that "Disintegrate" is basically "Polymorph to Dust Form"? Is that what it boils down to? If so, that's...odd...

Anyway...I typically DM with a sort of "If/Then/Else" type of attitude. I start with one thing, then just work down the logic-list until I get something solid. In the Disintegrate of a Wildshaped Druid...

First: Did the Beam hit the druid? Yes? Ok...

Second: Did the damage reduce the Druid to 0hp or lower? Yes? Ok...

Third: Druid is Disintegrated. What does that mean? "A disintegrated creature and everything it is wearing and carrying, except magic items, are reduced to a pile of fine gray dust. The creature can be restored to life only by means of a true resurrection or a wish spell". Ok...end of logic list.

Well, I get to "Third" and that pretty much definitively means the druid is dead. Why? Disintegrate says so. If at the Third point, the spell description didn't say "The creature can be restored to LIFE..." I would have moved on to a Fourth. Which would be the druid description for Wildshape. In that, I would move on down the list until I came to a logical conclusion. If that was the case, wildshape says "0 hp = return to normal form", then the druid would transform from a pile of dust into his normal shape. HOWEVER, we only get to the Third point because it definitively describes the target as "dead" (re: "...restored to life..." <-- meaning he's DEAD at this point).

If I get all the way through a logic-list, and there is still no definitive answer, then I just make a gut ruling that favours campaign continuity (yes, campaign...not PC's, not "player fun", not "DM fun"...what I think is best for the continuity and continuation of the campaign).

*shrug* No matter what I say, run it the way you want it to run in your game. In your game, YOU are the one making the decisions. Not me, not someone on this list, and no, not the "developer of the game". There are a lot of people on this list who, IMHO, have *much* more experience at RPG'ing (playing, DM'ing, creating, etc) than most of the developers. I give them a lot more credit and weight than the developers...especially considering the developers are kinda beholden to The Company's bottom line. If they can say "Grey", rather than saying "Black" or "White" (even if Black or White is the most logical answer), then they will say Grey...they offend less people that way and it doesn't look like they are taking sides; this means both Black and White sides are still neutral in terms of forking over their $$$. If they get ticked off because a 'developer' said "Black", and so they don't fork over as much or any $$$...then The Company isn't happy. So...a developer saying "yeah, stuff and 0hp and druids...bottom line, Grey" is best taken with a grain of who-the-F-cares? That's one of the main reason's I pretty much ignore "errata" and "developer tweets". IMNSHO, of course!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Chaosmancer]

Hiya!

So...some people seem to be arguing that "Disintegrate" is basically "Polymorph to Dust Form"? Is that what it boils down to? If so, that's...odd...

Anyway...I typically DM with a sort of "If/Then/Else" type of attitude. I start with one thing, then just work down the logic-list until I get something solid. In the Disintegrate of a Wildshaped Druid...

First: Did the Beam hit the druid? Yes? Ok...

Second: Did the damage reduce the Druid to 0hp or lower? Yes? Ok...

Third: Druid is Disintegrated. What does that mean? "A disintegrated creature and everything it is wearing and carrying, except magic items, are reduced to a pile of fine gray dust. The creature can be restored to life only by means of a true resurrection or a wish spell". Ok...end of logic list.

I'm gonna regret this choice. However, your logic train has a big missing step in my mind.

First: Did the Beam hit the druid? Yes? Ok...

Second: Did the damage reduce the Druid to 0hp or lower? No. It reduced the Temporary Hp of the Wildshape to 0. Then the follow thru damage hits the druid and does not reduce him to 0.

Third: Druid is not Disintegrated.

 

[Imaculata]

I'm gonna regret this choice. However, your logic train has a big missing step in my mind.

First: Did the Beam hit the druid? Yes? Ok...

Second: Did the damage reduce the Druid to 0hp or lower? No. It reduced the Temporary Hp of the Wildshape to 0. Then the follow thru damage hits the druid and does not reduce him to 0.

Third: Druid is not Disintegrated.

Ehrm, since when does Wildshape give a Druid temp hp?

PHB P67:

"When you transform, you assume the beast's hit
points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal
form, you return to the number of hit points you had
before you transformed. However, if you revert as a
result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage
carries over to your normal form. For example, if you
take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit
point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as
the excess damage doesn't reduce your normal form
to 0 hit points, you aren't knocked unconscious."

Seems pretty clear. They are not temporary hitpoints, they are actual hitpoints. But as soon as you are reduced to 0 hitpoints, you return back to your normal form, with the hitpoints you had before transforming, but you still take any excess damage.

Mechanically, its pretty clear why this rule is in place. Without it, there would not be a very good reason for the Druid to get into close combat as an animal, instead of using his spells from a distance. By returning to his original hp, the Druid can do both. So keeping this idea in mind, I would rule that even disintegrate makes a Druid revert back to its normal form at 0 hp, and he is not reduced to dust. A core class mechanic should overrule the vague descriptions of any spell.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm gonna regret this choice. However, your logic train has a big missing step in my mind.

First: Did the Beam hit the druid? Yes? Ok...

Second: Did the damage reduce the Druid to 0hp or lower? No. It reduced the Temporary Hp of the Wildshape to 0. Then the follow thru damage hits the druid and does not reduce him to 0.

Third: Druid is not Disintegrated.

There are no temporary hit points involved with wild shape. Anywhere. Read it again and see if you can quote me the part that says, "The druid gains temporary hit points equal to the number the animal he is wild shaping into possesses." I'm going to bet that you can't do it.

Making the hit points of the wild shape into temporary hit points is a house rule. RAW does not support it.

 

[Bleys Icefalcon]

"Wild shape", regardless of the fine print, was never intended to mean "Wild Shape, and Oh, I'm Immortal". You get disintegrated, and regardless of what form you are in, you are dead. Dust. Too bad, so sad.

IF, in your opinion this makes the Disintegrate spell too powerful for your game, then you may have to house rule it's effect. Nothing in the Drui's Wild Shape ability stops this from happening.

 

[Maxperson]

"Wild shape", regardless of the fine print, was never intended to mean "Wild Shape, and Oh, I'm Immortal". You get disintegrated, and regardless of what form you are in, you are dead. Dust. Too bad, so sad.

IF, in your opinion this makes the Disintegrate spell too powerful for your game, then you may have to house rule it's effect. Nothing in the Drui's Wild Shape ability stops this from happening.

While it may not be intended to make druids immortal, it was also intended for disintegrate to not kill wild shapes. RAW doesn't support that intent and Crawford knows that, which is why instead of answering my question as a rules clarification as he usually does, he told me directly what the intent was rather than what the rules say.