D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

[Celtavian]

Are you sure you quoted the right person? Nowhere have I stated that the bladesinger has better defense than a fighter eldritch knight.

I quoted the wrong person. It was huntsman I was trying to quote.

 

[Celtavian]

That is another thing. The bladesinger as presented is indeed a better ranged than melee character. As a full wizard its no wonder.
I had made bladesinging just a fighting style for fighters and used the new cantrips and eldritch knight.
Like the warlock, a multiclass fighter wizard bladesinger will be quite capable. And when you are coming from 3e or before, bladesingers have always been fighter/wizards.

What is to consider: in a small party, it is not always a choice to be in melee or not. Even in big parties you sometimes find yourself in melee more often than you wish.

And once again we are back to the question how much you value versatility over specialization.

TLDR do you want to be in melee as bladesinger... no thanks. Can you hold your own. Absolutely yes.
Are you as good in melee as a fighter or other dedicated weapon user? No. They need to be better. Otherwise being a fighter would be incredibly dumb.

There's also the question of the wizard being needed for his support abilities. The Bladesinger has no support abilities. He's a wizard with abilities that turn him into a subpar melee chracter. Why do such a thing when you have so many wizard schools that provide options that augment a party versus options that augment only a character in an inferior manner than the other melee options.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'd be more concerned about reduced effectiveness in combat compared to acting more typically like a Wizard than comparing to a Fighter.

You accept more multiple attribute dependency since your default combat is now driven by Dex for melee attacks vs. Int for cantrips. Your default strategy requires entering melee range although are compensated somewhat by both light armour and adding Int bonus to AC while bladesong is active. The big disadvantage of the MAD is you can either improve your melee capability by raising Dex to affect to-hit and damage or you can raise Int to affect ranged combat and saving throws. Bladesong slightly reduces the dependency on Con while it is active (you get a boost to Concentration saves and AC but not to hp or Con saving throws) and substantially increases the value of Dex to the character.

Your default damage effectively stagnates compared to a base Wizard using cantrips despite focusing the character's activities on a more dangerous activity subset -- melee combat.

At 4th level, you can strike once in melee with a finesse weapon for 1d8 + Dex mod or cast firebolt at range for 1d10 -- pretty much a wash except your to-hit is based on Dex rather than Int.
At 5th level, you are comparing 1d8 + Dex mod melee to 2d10 damage ranged -- ouch.
At 6th level, at least it moves to 2 attacks of 1d8 + Dex mod vs. 2d10 firebolt damage -- back to being a wash.
At 11th level you are still 2x(1d8 + Dex mod) melee vs. 3d10 ranged -- if you are Dex 16 then you have dropped behind in damage and even you have raised Dex to 20 this is close to a wash. And if you have raised Dex preferentially over Int, your saving throws are suffering compared to a default Wizard.

As noted, a character's ability to augment melee capability with spellcasting is limited for wizards compared to the other melee spellcasters. So you end up acting like a dilettante -- playing at melee until you need to revert to more wizardly actions.

you forgot greenflame blade, and 1d8+5×2 is much more than 2d10...
It is more than 3d10 actually.

Also in another thrrad prople are arguing that anyone not entering melee is weakening the group because you don't spend hitdice and others spend more of theirs.

In the end it is just playstyle and versatility vs specialization.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

There's also the question of the wizard being needed for his support abilities. The Bladesinger has no support abilities. He's a wizard with abilities that turn him into a subpar melee chracter. Why do such a thing when you have so many wizard schools that provide options that augment a party versus options that augment only a character in an inferior manner than the other melee options.

depends on party size.
If you are a force multiplier, make sure that the force you multiply is big enough to make up for you not doing anything.

lets look at diablo 3 zero dps builds:
Lets assume everyone deals 100 damage per second and you 0
You may buff everyones damage by 60%
So in a party of 4, everyone together deals 480 damage per second.
with only 3 persons you deal only 320 damage and in a party of 2 you just deal 160 damage.

If you do a standard buff build, increasing everyone's damage by 30% and still deal 50% of the damage, a party of 4 does 455 damage.
A party of 3 deals 325 damage and a party of 2 deals 195% damage.

You can do a similar calculation with defense and its similar in D&D.

 

[Nagol]

you forgot greenflame blade, and 1d8+5×2 is much more than 2d10...
It is more than 3d10 actually.

Also in another thrrad prople are arguing that anyone not entering melee is weakening the group because you don't spend hitdice and others spend more of theirs.

If the bladesinger wants to learn and use Greenflame blade he can, but his damage goes down not up. He gets a single melee attack using Dex (assuming finesse weapon) and the additional Int mod damage to a 2nd creature within 5 ft. However, that is casting a cantrip NOT taking an attack action so you won't get a second attack from Extra Attack -- this is part of the problem.

In the end it is just playstyle and versatility vs specialization.

And since the bladesinger is becoming more specialised, it should be expected to get better within that specialty.

 

[Nagol]

depends on party size.
If you are a force multiplier, make sure that the force you multiply is big enough to make up for you not doing anything.

lets look at diablo 3 zero dps builds:
Lets assume everyone deals 100 damage per second and you 0
You may buff everyones damage by 60%
So in a party of 4, everyone together deals 480 damage per second.
with only 3 persons you deal only 320 damage and in a party of 2 you just deal 160 damage.

If you do a standard buff build, increasing everyone's damage by 30% and still deal 50% of the damage, a party of 4 does 455 damage.
A party of 3 deals 325 damage and a party of 2 deals 195% damage.

You can do a similar calculation with defense and its similar in D&D.

The problem with this comparison is bladesinger does not gain improvements in damage output or party augmentation compared to other traditions -- and in fact loses such in comparison to several. What it gains is personal survivability through armor use, situational improved AC, damage mitigation through sacrifice of prepared spells, and situational improved concentration.

It loses the other traditions' abilities that increase personal or group effectiveness like portent, mob creation, or even adding Int to cantrip damage. It suffers MAD and is incented to raise Dex as opposed to Int which weakens the hitting power of spells, a wizard's big guns.

 

[mellored]

If the bladesinger wants to learn and use Greenflame blade he can, but his damage goes down not up. He gets a single melee attack using Dex (assuming finesse weapon) and the additional Int mod damage to a 2nd creature within 5 ft. However, that is casting a cantrip NOT taking an attack action so you won't get a second attack from Extra Attack -- this is part of the problem.

It's more damage. You do full normal weapon damage, plus int.

1d8+dex+int (10.5) > 1d10 firebolt (5.5) *assuming 3 int/dex
3d8+dex+int (20.5) > 2d10 firebolt (11) *assuming 4 int/3 dex
5d8+dex+int (30.5)> 3d10 firebolt (16.5) *assuming 4 int/4 dex
7d8+dex+int (40.5) > 4d10 firebolt (22) *assuming 5 int/4 dex.

That's close to double the damage for being in melee. Though the damage is spread out and more MAD, so call it 50% more.

That's enough.

Multi-attack on the blade singer is basically a throw away feature. Only useful if you end up in a silence.

 

[mellored]

The problem with this comparison is bladesinger does not gain improvements in damage output or party augmentation compared to other traditions -- and in fact loses such in comparison to several. What it gains is personal survivability through armor use, situational improved AC, damage mitigation through sacrifice of prepared spells, and situational improved concentration.

2 per short rest is not that situational. It's the majority of battles.

Compared to portent, which is 2 rolls per day.

 

[Nagol]

It's more damage. You do full normal weapon damage, plus int.

1d8+dex+int (10.5) > 1d10 firebolt (5.5) *assuming 3 int/dex
3d8+dex+int (20.5) > 2d10 firebolt (11) *assuming 4 int/3 dex
5d8+dex+int (30.5)> 3d10 firebolt (16.5) *assuming 4 int/4 dex
7d8+dex+int (40.5) > 4d10 firebolt (22) *assuming 5 int/4 dex.

That's close to double the damage for being in melee. Though the damage is spread out and more MAD, so call it 50% more.

That's enough.

Multi-attack on the blade singer is basically a throw away feature. Only useful if you end up in a silence.

So your contention is the only way bladesinger is viable is using the new cantrips? The extra spread damage of Greenflame blade brings the melee damage back up to par if and only if the bladesinger has continuous multiple opponents in melee range, maximises Dex (for to-hit and damage modifier), and uses an ability that negates the value of one of its class features.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If the bladesinger wants to learn and use Greenflame blade he can, but his damage goes down not up. He gets a single melee attack using Dex (assuming finesse weapon) and the additional Int mod damage to a 2nd creature within 5 ft. However, that is casting a cantrip NOT taking an attack action so you won't get a second attack from Extra Attack -- this is part of the problem.

And since the bladesinger is becoming more specialised, it should be expected to get better within that specialty.

Not at level 5. There his damage goes up.
Do you think I can´t read? Of course he can´t mix both. Best design decision? Maybe no. But greenflame blade is better than firebolt damagewise at level 5. Also if you are going bladesinger and want to melee, you shoukd consider raising dex first. But that is just my opinion.
But please, think for yourself before telling me the obvious.
Oh, and from a wizard´s standpoint, the bladesinger does not specialize, but diversify.