D&D 5E Is a CR 30 monster a suitable challenge for a 20th level party?

[FormerlyHemlock]

Tiamat's way more then strong enough to crush a Level 20 party on her own. I remember when a party did a Demo of a fight against her in her temple. 5 PC's with some powerful magic items. They got her to about half hp before they were wiped out. And as the DM pointed out later he forgot she could regenerate. Combined with the fact he made her make many unoptimal choices.

Conversely, I've DMed a one-shot in which the level 20 party utterly destroyed Tiamat. She was dead before the second PC finished his attack sequence in the first (surprise) round (Stealth rolls in the 40s and 50s beat her passive perception). That's what happens when you use grotesque multiclassing combinations like paladin/assassin/battlemaster/bard.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Conversely, I've DMed a one-shot in which the level 20 party utterly destroyed Tiamat. She was dead before the second PC finished his attack sequence in the first (surprise) round (Stealth rolls in the 40s and 50s beat her passive perception). That's what happens when you use grotesque multiclassing combinations like paladin/assassin/battlemaster/bard.

Yeah but that is not a standard or normal party. No normal party is ever going to get the drop on her anyway. The DM won't allow it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A medium encounter for 11th level 4 person party is a single CR 11. What single 1st level spell kills that?

In my experience, the non-cantrip spell most likely to be cast in a Medium combat is either Shield, Expeditious Retreat, or a post-combat Cure Wounds (or 1/4 of an Aura of Vitality, which is cheaper and more effective than a first-level Cure Wounds). For example, 3 Chuuls and 4 Hobgoblins (Medium) probably warrants an Expeditious Retreat whereas a Horned Devil or Remorhaz (also Medium) probably warrants a Hex (for grappling/proning) and maybe a Shield, depending on the circumstances of the encounter. I can imagine Tasha's Hideous Laughter being the one spell that takes down a Dao or Efreet, too, but I don't favor melee parties so I haven't actually used that spell much in 5E because it doesn't play nicely with ranged combat.

Spell Snipered Eldritch Blast, Dodge, Mobile, and skeleton archers handle the bulk of the work in easy (Medium-Deadly x1 or x2) encounters without the need to spend actual spell points. The occasional first-level spell just covers the occasional emergencies, like when the Chuuls manage to bust past the paladin in the chokepoint and close in on one of the backline casters who carelessly got too close. At that point he has to spend an Expeditious Retreat to get away, if the paladin doesn't manage to grapple the Chuul first.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yeah but that is not a standard or normal party. No normal party is ever going to get the drop on her anyway. The DM won't allow it.

Ah, I see. You were talking about a *real* party. I agree. Like I said earlier in this thread, Tiamat is plenty hard for a party that isn't built specifically to kill her. Unlike the Tarrasque, she actually deserves her CR 30 rating. It's still doable, but not trivial.

 

[kalil]

Conversely, I've DMed a one-shot in which the level 20 party utterly destroyed Tiamat. She was dead before the second PC finished his attack sequence in the first (surprise) round (Stealth rolls in the 40s and 50s beat her passive perception). That's what happens when you use grotesque multiclassing combinations like paladin/assassin/battlemaster/bard.

This was my gut feeling. I have not tried it in practise, but my instinct tells me that a decently optimized well-played level 20 party will obliterate any single enemy during the first round and have enough lock down to keep the enemy pinned for at least a few rounds on top of that.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This was my gut feeling. I have not tried it in practise, but my instinct tells me that a decently optimized well-played level 20 party will obliterate any single enemy during the first round and have enough lock down to keep the enemy pinned for at least a few rounds on top of that.

It was not a normal, "decently optimized" party. It was a role-playing abomination.

I think she would have done quite well against a normal party under the same circumstances.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Ah, I see. You were talking about a *real* party. I agree. Like I said earlier in this thread, Tiamat is plenty hard for a party that isn't built specifically to kill her. Unlike the Tarrasque, she actually deserves her CR 30 rating. It's still doable, but not trivial.

I have already fixed the Tarrasque.

Here are the traits I gave it to make it worthy of it's rating.

"Immutable Form. The tarrasque is immune to any spell or effect that would alter its form." (This prevents stuff like it being polymorphed)
"Regeneration. The Tarrasque regains 30 hit points at the start of it's turn." (The Tarrasque has always had Regeneration in every edition but 5e. So I gave it back a power it should have had in the first place.)
"Magic Weapons. The Tarrasque's weapon attacks are magical." (This way creatures immune to nonmagical weapons can't block it.)
"Boulder. Ranged Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, range 600 ft., one target. Hit 7d10+10 damage. if the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 25 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone." (This gets rid of any flyers or kiters because in order to attack the Terrasque they has to get within it's range. This is also a Costs 2 legendary actions move so it can be used off turn.)
"Immortality. The only way to ensure the Terrasque's defeat is to reduce it to 0 hit points, and before it's regeneration activates use a specifically worded Wish spell to keep it from regenerating. The Terrasque will then slump to the ground and sink deep into the earth and begin it's slumber for an unknown number of years." (The Tarrasque had a similar immortality clause in all past editions. Once again I am giving it back something it should have had.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Hmmm, that is pretty good, certainly at least on par with 2nd edition--but the Tarrasque was notoriously easy to kill in 2nd edition. I still see some potential exploits that could nullify the Tarrasque without a Wish. Bestow Curse is the most obvious one (perma-stun), but you could also get an Intellect Devourer (via True Polymorph or alliance with mind flayers) to just eat its mind, after you've reduced it to 0 HP. Also, you could cast Sleep on it and then drown it, or toss it in a volcano. (Not as easy as if it didn't have Immutable Form, but should still be doable.)

Then there's Power Word: Kill, and Imprisonment, and Shadows that drain strength, and undead/demons that reduce your maximum HP until a long rest. I can see Contagion (Slimy Doom) playing a part in the disposal process too.

And it is still somewhat kitable unfortunately. 600' ranged attack is good, but a Sorlock can hit 1200' with Distant Spell, and a regular Sharpshooter mounted on a Phantom Steed has an effective range of 700' (because his steed can Dash for 200' of movement during his turn) unless the Tarrasque holds an action. Plus there are siege engines mounted on spelljamming ships. Regeneration helps deal with that, but I'd recommend bumping up the range to 800' (like a DMG mangonel) just in case. It'll still be susceptible to melee kiting by Mobile Moon Druids though (Earth Glide + Mobile = awesome).

So basically, if I had to kill your version of the Tarrasque I would probably set up a Symbol of Insanity (which targets its +5 Int save) or five, and then have a Sharpshooter on a Phantom Steed try to kite it into the Symbol of Insanity, at which point the rest of my team springs into action (e.g. Paladorc and his Simulacrum charge out and begin Smiting (need to find a way to prevent them from falling victim to insanity though)) to get it down to zero HP. Then the druid can Contagion it (Paladorc will Bend Luck to make it more likely that it fails) and the wizard will Bestow Curse to perma-stun it, and the horde of shadows the wizard created previously using True Polymorph/Shadow Dragon will descend upon the unconscious Tarrasque to drain all of its Strength while an Intellect Devourer eats its mind...

If I had to I could probably find a few more exploits that don't involve Wish or a spelljamming ship.

Anyway, your version does deserve its CR 30 rating, but I think it requires a bit more tweaking to justify its reputation as a recurring, civilization-destroying menace. Either fix its vulnerabilities, or keep its abilities secret, or make it so there is more than one of them. A truly terrifying Tarrasque is one that reproduces regularly (either by laying Godzilla eggs or else via grotesque, amoeba-like fission that probably leverages its regenreation). Imagine if you took your Tarrasque and make the number of Tarrasques double once a week, the way Witchlight Marauders and tribbles do! Combine that with some ambiguity in the intel on the Tarrasque's abilities and suddenly you have a genuine existential threat to the whole civilization which 1.) can plausibly be addressed by the PCs, if they are smart, but also 2.) can plausibly be said to have ended multiple ancient civilizations.

 

[dave2008]

Hmmm, that is pretty good, certainly at least on par with 2nd edition--but the Tarrasque was notoriously easy to kill in 2nd edition. I still see some potential exploits that could nullify the Tarrasque without a Wish. Bestow Curse is the most obvious one (perma-stun), but you could also get an Intellect Devourer (via True Polymorph or alliance with mind flayers) to just eat its mind, after you've reduced it to 0 HP. Also, you could cast Sleep on it and then drown it, or toss it in a volcano. (Not as easy as if it didn't have Immutable Form, but should still be doable.)

Then there's Power Word: Kill, and Imprisonment, and Shadows that drain strength, and undead/demons that reduce your maximum HP until a long rest. I can see Contagion (Slimy Doom) playing a part in the disposal process too.

And it is still somewhat kitable unfortunately. 600' ranged attack is good, but a Sorlock can hit 1200' with Distant Spell, and a regular Sharpshooter mounted on a Phantom Steed has an effective range of 700' (because his steed can Dash for 200' of movement during his turn) unless the Tarrasque holds an action. Plus there are siege engines mounted on spelljamming ships. Regeneration helps deal with that, but I'd recommend bumping up the range to 800' (like a DMG mangonel) just in case. It'll still be susceptible to melee kiting by Mobile Moon Druids though (Earth Glide + Mobile = awesome).

So basically, if I had to kill your version of the Tarrasque I would probably set up a Symbol of Insanity (which targets its +5 Int save) or five, and then have a Sharpshooter on a Phantom Steed try to kite it into the Symbol of Insanity, at which point the rest of my team springs into action (e.g. Paladorc and his Simulacrum charge out and begin Smiting (need to find a way to prevent them from falling victim to insanity though)) to get it down to zero HP. Then the druid can Contagion it (Paladorc will Bend Luck to make it more likely that it fails) and the wizard will Bestow Curse to perma-stun it, and the horde of shadows the wizard created previously using True Polymorph/Shadow Dragon will descend upon the unconscious Tarrasque to drain all of its Strength while an Intellect Devourer eats its mind...

If I had to I could probably find a few more exploits that don't involve Wish or a spelljamming ship.

Anyway, your version does deserve its CR 30 rating, but I think it requires a bit more tweaking to justify its reputation as a recurring, civilization-destroying menace. Either fix its vulnerabilities, or keep its abilities secret, or make it so there is more than one of them. A truly terrifying Tarrasque is one that reproduces regularly (either by laying Godzilla eggs or else via grotesque, amoeba-like fission that probably leverages its regenreation). Imagine if you took your Tarrasque and make the number of Tarrasques double once a week, the way Witchlight Marauders and tribbles do! Combine that with some ambiguity in the intel on the Tarrasque's abilities and suddenly you have a genuine existential threat to the whole civilization which 1.) can plausibly be addressed by the PCs, if they are smart, but also 2.) can plausibly be said to have ended multiple ancient civilizations.

Actually in 5e the specific rule in 5e overrules the general rule. Thus, his "Immortality" trait would supersede your ideas for killing it. If the rule says you need a wish - then you need a wish.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Actually in 5e the specific rule in 5e overrules the general rule. Thus, his "Immortality" trait would supersede your ideas for killing it. If the rule says you need a wish - then you need a wish.

But... I didn't suggest many ideas for killing it! I primarily suggested ideas for incapacitating it without having to kill it. A perma-stunned Tarrasque whose brain has been eaten by an Intellect Devourer is still Immortal, but no longer a threat. Especially if its Strength is 0 and it's chained to an anchor at the bottom of the ocean which continually drowns it.

A good BBEG plot would be to retrieve the Tarrasque from the bottom of the ocean, take it somewhere inhabited, and cast Greater Restoration on it.