D&D 5E Life Cleric Multiclass armor prof

[Ganymede81]

The multiclassing rules state that you when you gain a new level in a class, you get the class features (with the noted exceptions). A domain selection is a class feature. If that class feature grants skill or tool proficiencies, it comes from that class feature and isn't affected by 'starting proficiencies'.

Arguing that you don't get the bonus proficiencies from a class feature selection because they're not on the list of multiclassing starting proficiencies is arguing against what the multiclassing rules say immediately after that list.

I do not find this to be a convincing argument.

The fact that something can be a class feature and grant a proficiency is not an actual rules problem from the Multiclassing perspective as both can be true at the same time. The Nature Domain is a Cleric class feature, which is allowed by the multiclassing rules, but also grants a skill proficiency, which is disallowed under the multiclassing rules. There is no inherent contradiction. (I suppose you could argue that the rules mean the proficiency is both allowed and disallowed at the same time, but then arguing for some sort of Schrodinger's proficiency doesn't exactly help your case.)


I think the best counter-argument here is to point out how it impacts the first level Knowledge Domain feature. That feature grants proficiency in two skills, and then gives expertise to those skills. The way it is worded, denying proficiency would subsequently deny the expertise. One can fairly argue that denying first level proficiencies granted by class features makes sense, but it is harder to argue that Knowledge Clerics should be denied their expertise.

 

[Ganymede81]

You're just reiterating your confidence that you're right. If you're not going to discuss the issue in good faith, I'm no longer going to respond to your comments in this thread.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I do not find this to be a convincing argument.

Your confidence shows you might have a deeper insight into the rules than I do.

The fact that something can be a class feature and grant a proficiency is not an actual rules problem from the Multiclassing perspective as both can be true at the same time. The Nature Domain is a Cleric class feature, which is allowed by the multiclassing rules, but also grants a skill proficiency, which is disallowed under the multiclassing rules. There is no inherent contradiction. (I suppose you could argue that the rules mean the proficiency is both allowed and disallowed at the same time, but then arguing for some sort of Schrodinger's proficiency doesn't exactly help your case.)

Sorry, I didn't read under the 'class features' header that it says that you get the class features as normal, unless they're proficiencies. You're adding information not present. The rules say, "[w]hen you gain a new level in a class, you get its features for that level." There's nothing in the handful of exceptions that changes that with regard to proficiencies provided by those features.

I think the best counter-argument here is to point out how it impacts the first level Knowledge Domain feature. That feature grants proficiency in two skills, and then gives expertise to those skills. The way it is worded, denying proficiency would subsequently deny the expertise. One can fairly argue that denying first level proficiencies granted by class features makes sense, but it is harder to argue that Knowledge Clerics should be denied their expertise.

I think the best counter argument is that you get the class features, period. If those include proficiencies, as many do, you get them.

Here, let me try this way. When you take the cleric class, you get a set of proficiencies: armor, weapons, tools, saving throws, skills. These aren't tied to level -- they don't appear on the level chart as features you gain at that level. These are the things you get at the very beginning when you choose the class. Then you look at the features by level chart for the class, find those in the class descriptions, and apply them as necessary. These are the things you get from that class for your level in that class.

Multiclassing changes the first thing -- the things you get for just picking the class -- but not the second thing -- the features you get at each class level.

Example: As a new, 1st level character, I select cleric. For selecting cleric, I get the following proficiencies: light and medium armor and shields; simple weapons; wisdom and charisma saves; and two skills from the list in the PHB. Then I get the 1st level cleric features of spellcasting and divine domain. My selection of divine domain may give me more proficiencies.

As a different character, I choose to multiclass into cleric at a level above 1st (let's say 2nd). When I gain my 2nd level, I choose the cleric class. The mulitclassing rules, though, change the way I get the starting proficiencies -- the ones I get for picking the cleric class. In this case, for picking the cleric class, I get light and medium armor and shield proficiencies ONLY. I don't get simple weapons, wisdom and charisma saves, or two new skill selections, because those selections have been modified by the multiclassing rules. After I've recorded my (maybe new) armor proficiencies, I get my 1st level cleric features. The multiclassing rules state clearly that when gaining a new level in the class, I get all of the class features of that level. Well, the class features of a 1st level cleric are spellcasting and divine domain. If the divine domain grants me additional proficiencies, I get them because those are part of the class features awarded as part of gaining a new level in the class.

 

[Ganymede81]

Your confidence shows you might have a deeper insight into the rules than I do.

I was merely expressing that I was not swayed by your argument; I did not think it was convincing. I'm not sure what that has to do with any confidence on my part.

Sorry, I didn't read under the 'class features' header that it says that you get the class features as normal, unless they're proficiencies. You're adding information not present. The rules say, "[w]hen you gain a new level in a class, you get its features for that level." There's nothing in the handful of exceptions that changes that with regard to proficiencies provided by those features.

Why would such information be under the "Class Features" header when it was already covered a paragraph before under the "Proficiencies" header? It seems unreasonable to expect such information to be presented a second time on the same page, and to then read into its absence rules that simply aren't there.

The bottom line is that the Multiclassing rules present two rules that must be followed: "When you gain a new level in a class, you get its features for that level," and "When you gain a level in a class other than your first, you gain only some of that class’s starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table."

We are compelled to follow both rules.

As someone said already, the crux of the issue is the definition of "starting proficiencies." I think a reasonable definition involves those proficiencies a character would gain from the first level of a class, i.e. the proficiencies he would start with. You think otherwise, and there are good arguments for why that might be the case (The knowledge domain argument, for instance). Your argument here, on the other hand, simply isn't a good one.

I think the best counter argument is that you get the class features, period. If those include proficiencies, as many do, you get them.

Here, let me try this way. [...explanation.]

There is not a failure of communication. It isn't as if I didn't understand where you are coming from, or that I didn't understand your argument, so there is really no reason to repeat it here.

We simply have different perspectives on the issue, and it appears we might be at an impasse.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Earlier, I said, "One will not find this in the rules because this Class/Subclass dichotomy is not an actual part of the rules." Your confidence here indicates that the Class/Subclass dichotomy IS in the rules and that you know where to find it. Could you help me out with a quick page reference so we can clear up this ambiguity?

I'll jump in with a comment here. You are correct that there is nothing in the published rules that references the term "subclass", nor provides general rules regarding them. However, the concept of subclasses has been an important part of the design of the edition, and the philosophy behind them has been at least referenced during that time frame. As far as direct text to support this, I'm afraid I'm not willing to spend the time looking up all of the articles and such from 3 years ago. (Had this discussion come up at a different time, I might have taken the time--it just isn't a good usage of my resources right now). I can tell you that I've meticulously followed pretty much everything to do with the public playtest since before it was announced all the way through to publication of the game, and I have kept up to date on the vast majority of everything since then (including designer tweets, etc). While that doesn't give me any authority or guarantee that my interpretation is correct, I thought it was worth bringing up as the source of my confidence regarding the nature and reality of subclass existence.

Here, let me try this way. When you take the cleric class, you get a set of proficiencies: armor, weapons, tools, saving throws, skills. These aren't tied to level -- they don't appear on the level chart as features you gain at that level. These are the things you get at the very beginning when you choose the class. Then you look at the features by level chart for the class, find those in the class descriptions, and apply them as necessary. These are the things you get from that class for your level in that class.

Multiclassing changes the first thing -- the things you get for just picking the class -- but not the second thing -- the features you get at each class level.

I think this is perhaps the best argument for our position, and would encourage anyone with the alternate interpretation to read your post carefully with this in mind.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That is actually a good argument. And still I won't play that way. But I would guess Sage Advice will rule in favour of your interpretation, even if it makes no sense.

 

[crashtestdummy]

If I may, though I know I won't get anyone to change their mind, if you look at page 60 of the PHB under Life Domain, you'll see a section header "Bonus Proficiency" under which it states you gain proficiency with heavy armor.

Since some people are being extremely pedantic with the wording for multiclassing, the multiclassing states that "starting proficiencies" are changed as per the table on page 164. The section on Life Domain clearly states that the heavy armor proficiency is a "Bonus Proficiency", not a "starting proficiency".

The wording seems clear to me: bonus proficiencies are not starting proficiencies -- they're two completely different terms. Therefore, multiclassing to Cleric and choosing the Life Domain (or Nature, Tempest, or War Domains) grants you the specified Bonus Proficiencies.

Now, I'm sure someone is likely to argue that bonus proficiencies are a subset of starting proficiencies if they occur at level 1, but I leave it them to articulate that argument...

 

[Ovinomancer]

I was merely expressing that I was not swayed by your argument; I did not think it was convincing. I'm not sure what that has to do with any confidence on my part.

Your confidence shows you might have a deeper insight into the rules than I do.

If that's not applicable to you, then I think you should stop saying to others.

Why would such information be under the "Class Features" header when it was already covered a paragraph before under the "Proficiencies" header? It seems unreasonable to expect such information to be presented a second time on the same page, and to then read into its absence rules that simply aren't there.

The bottom line is that the Multiclassing rules present two rules that must be followed: "When you gain a new level in a class, you get its features for that level," and "When you gain a level in a class other than your first, you gain only some of that class’s starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table."

We are compelled to follow both rules.

Then clearly you failed to understand my point, as I've followed both rules.

As someone said already, the crux of the issue is the definition of "starting proficiencies." I think a reasonable definition involves those proficiencies a character would gain from the first level of a class, i.e. the proficiencies he would start with. You think otherwise, and there are good arguments for why that might be the case (The knowledge domain argument, for instance). Your argument here, on the other hand, simply isn't a good one.

Then I have a question for you. Is the Divine Domain class feature, as granted to 1st level Clerics, a "starting proficiency?" Because, if it is not, if the Divine Domain class feature is not a "starting proficiency", then the rule for class features takes over and you get all benefits of that class feature unless specifically noted otherwise under the class feature heading in multiclassing. That one of the mechanics of the class feature Divine Domain may be the granting of proficiencies is irrelevant -- unless the Divine Domain class feature is itself a "starting proficiency" there's absolutely no way the rules for starting proficiencies under multiclassing could possibly apply.

There is not a failure of communication. It isn't as if I didn't understand where you are coming from, or that I didn't understand your argument, so there is really no reason to repeat it here.

It actually appears that you do, if you think that I'm not following all of the rules under multiclassing.

We simply have different perspectives on the issue, and it appears we might be at an impasse.

You will have to reconcile how Divine Domain is a special case class feature that should be deconstructed and treated piecemeal unlike other class features without any direct instruction to do so under RAW to be able to use your interpretation. The only way the proficiencies under Divine Domain could possibly be considered 'starting proficiencies' is if you treat it specially from all other class features. There is no indication that you should do so. Your choice to do so is contraindicated.

 

[Ganymede81]

I think this is perhaps the best argument for our position, and would encourage anyone with the alternate interpretation to read your post carefully with this in mind.

There is no "our position" or "their position." There is only a mutually performed critical analysis to find the best answer.

"When you take the cleric class, you get a set of proficiencies: armor, weapons, tools, saving throws, skills. These aren't tied to level -- they don't appear on the level chart as features you gain at that level. These are the things you get at the very beginning when you choose the class."

I think this is perhaps the best argument for our position, and would encourage anyone with the alternate interpretation to read your post carefully with this in mind.

Good arguments are not easily countered. Someone can counter this argument by pointing out that it is silly to claim that those benefits aren't tied to level when you only ever get them when you take the first level in that class.

There is also the fact that, of these so-called starting elements that aren't tied to class level, some of them can't even be determined until after you've selected your Domain.

Note the starting equipment package for Clerics, a section firmly enmeshed alongside proficiencies and divorced from the Class Features proper. It lists two options that you can't even select until you've determined that you're a War Cleric: "a wahammer (if proficient)," and "chain mail (if proficient)." The fact that this exists casts doubt on the suggestion that the things before class features are to be determined separately and distinctly before moving on to class features.

...

You're becoming rancorous and confrontational. As I've already told cbwjm, if you're not going to discuss this civilly and in good faith, I am no longer going to respond to your posts.

 

[ZeroLow]

"Starting proficiencies"(Armor +Weapon) are listed at page 45 (Classes Table) those are replaced by the listing at page 164. Other (Armor +Weapon proficiencies) are granted since they are not starting proficiencies. If it make sense or no sense that a fighter does not get heavy armor when MC does not matter. But it is fun reading so keep going.

So the only question for Mr. Crawford would be if in the next printed version of the PHB he could include the word Starting proficiencies over this table at least for weapon and armor. Or make a new table with those two words above including everything.