D&D 5E Strength is agile

[Yaarel]

Ideally, I want, the Dexterity ability to clarify that specifically means:

• ‘agility of the hands’
• and ‘reflexes of the hands’

In other words, Juggling, Sleight of Hand, Crafting (carving, weaving, calligraphy, alchemy, etcetera, for magic items), and in this vein of manual mastery, other precision stunts.



In the sense of small hand-like precision, Dexterity also means:

• ‘A Dexterity check can model any attempt to move carefully’.

In other words, moving carefully and precisely especially means Stealth, which is pretty much a Dexterity-only skill.



Then, I want to delete the Acrobatics skill, and make all of it inseparable aspects of the Athletics skill.

Athletics means:

• ‘agility of the body’
• ‘reflexes of the body’
• ‘balance’

Balance is moreso an inseparable aspect of Jumping and Climbing than of knitting.

The Athletics means: Jumping, Climbing, and especially Tumbling, in other words Gymnastics. Athletics also includes Running, Swimming, and other body stunt sports. Athletics means agility.



There are times when I call for a ‘Constitution (Athletics) check’, mostly for endurance stuff, because it seems most appropriate. There will probably be times when I would call for a ‘Dexterity (Athletics) check’, mostly in the sense of moving carefully, where precise movements are significant.

When adjudicating, I personally, would normally use a ‘Strength (Athletics) check’ for balance - especially for rough-and-tumble balance. But if a hero has high Dexterity, I would be happy to substitute Dexterity (Athletics) for balance in the sense of moving carefully and precisely, especially for tightrope balance. It seems to me, balance is a Finesse test that can benefit from broad body movements of gross motor skills or alternatively narrow hand-like movements of fine motor skills.


In sum:

• Strength = big body accuracy (Athletics, including Tumbling and Balance)
• Dexterity = small hand-like precision (Sleight of Hand, Stealth, but also Balance)

 

[Yaarel]

All of the images in the original post photograph are tests of Strength. The images come from Olympic gymnasts, Parkour daredevils, weightlifting gyms, and elsewhere. Keep in mind, the images of people standing on their hands are actually in the midst of doing handstand pushups, and arent simply doing a stationary handstand. It is impossible for a person with low Strength to do any of the actions in the first post.

The fact that gymnastics requires Strength, seems to upset certain individuals. But happily, the rules as written use Strength alone for highjump, longjump, and climb. The rules normally use Strength for actions that require accuracy. Strengh is often agile.

Some individuals in the thread object. A less convincing argument is: they show me a picture of a muscular stout man who uses steroids, and then tell me this person cannot be agile. How do they know this person is not agile?

People who look musclebound normally do things on their free time like, play football, do boxing, go mountain climbing, waterskiing, play racketball, and so on. I am confident, these bodybuilders have an agility that is much higher than that of an average person. The fact that they can walk on their hands, pull up their own bodyweight, spring up ropes, and so on, already makes them far more agile than the average person. If there was a bodybuilder who was not generally athletic, that would seem really unusual.

There is one poster who seemed to make a more careful argument, implying that there isnt a direct correlation between weightlifting and gymnastics. The world record holder of lifting the highest weight is not also the same person who is the best on a gymnastics tumbling floor. Now that is true.

A person who is generally strong will be good at both weightlifting and athletics. But the best weightlifter isnt necessarily the best athlete, and the best athlete isnt necessarily the best weightlifter. How does D&D represent this kind of relationship?

Separate Weightlifting into a separate skill, that requires training, which it really is. This separate skill allows people to add proficiency and other kinds of modifications to become extremely good at manipulating weights. If they want, they can neglect the Athletics skill to represent the archetype of the bulky hulk that is extremely strong but not necessarily athletic. Oppositely, they can become extremely proficient at Athletics but neglect the Weightlifting skill, to represent the archetype of the jock.

Both Weightlifting and Athletics are skills that represent Strength, which is ‘natural athleticism’. A hero that is innately strong thus has a high Strength score, will have a talent for both of these skills. But proficiency in either skill requires effort and training.

It is even possible for a hero that has a low Strength score thus isnt ‘naturally athletic’ to nevertheless be highly proficient in Weightlifting, but this is unusual.



As separate skills:

Strength (Weightlifting): includes Bend Bars, Break Doors, and similar brute force.

Strength (Athletics): includes any kind of body stunt, and similar agility.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

...Olympic gymnasts...

Just for the sake of clarification, are you stating that Olympic gymnasts rely on strength to excel in their sport?

This is Nadia Comăneci:



She is considered one of the greatest to ever compete.

What would you say her strength score should be if she were a D&D character?

 

[Yaarel]

True. But i also assume a given minimal level of fitness that goes with the training, so a "fighter" is by definition at least as athletic as required by his proficiency bonus and/or weapon training.

I'm just adding Str requirements for effective (no penalty when using) weapon use.

This i'd rather put into min. req. and training section, at least for swords (as noted before).

And again, as mentioned some bonus from Str is added. Just not as much. The way things stand now (as said in the previous posts) a completely untrained character (say a farmer or dock loader) with exceptional strength hits as precise as a superbly trained warrior with average strength. I just feel training should be more important then "raw" (to avoid the term brute) strength.

Regarding prereqs for weapons, maybe all ‘military’ weapons have a minimum Strength requirement. Military weapons require extensive training to be effective. But they might also require, some natural aptitude. I can especially see a two-handed sword requiring both Strength and Constitution to wield effectively. Similarly, I could see a longbow or shortbow with a minimum Dexterity requirement. A weapon like a shuriken or a blowdart is moreorless useless, unless a person has high Dexterity.

Putting ability prereqs on weapons would remove the ability of many heroes to use them. (Because they become subpar choices.) This kind of restriction isnt necessarily a bad thing, might even help gaming balance, maybe. Have you thought thru the consequences of assigning ability prereqs?

 

[Yaarel]

Just for the sake of clarification, are you stating that Olympic gymnasts rely on strength to excel in their sport?

This is Nadia Comăneci:

View attachment 74318

She is considered one of the greatest to ever compete.

What would you say her strength score should be if she were a D&D character?

Yeah, this is good picture to thing about, when thinking about D&D heroes.

In reallife, women tend to be less strong men, and even women who are strong tend to have muscles that bulk up less than those of men do. Especially, women less often have extreme upper body strength. But their leg strength is higher with a frequency closer to men.

One must remember leg strength when thinking about the D&D Strength score.


Ok, all of that said. She looks pretty buff for a woman (that never uses steroids).

She is fairly strong, and can certainly jump high, because she is an Olympic level gymnast. In this particular picture, her jump isnt so high, and she looks like she is about to do some other kind of body stunt. Even so, maybe even this jump can clear 4 feet? So it is a highjump.

I am going to estimate that their Strength is 14 in D&D terms, which is pretty good for a reallife woman. But who knows her Strength might be 16 or so?

If it is possible to disconnect Weightlifting as a separate skill that requires training, then I would more confidently estimate her Strength at 16 or even higher, where Strength is explicitly defined as ‘natural athleticism’.

The rest of her athletic competence would be, in D&D terms, the result of her experience, level, proficiency, and feats.

 

[Sacrosanct]

 

[ChrisCarlson]

I am going to estimate that their Strength is 14 in D&D terms, which is pretty good for a reallife woman. But who knows her Strength might be 16 or so?

You think so? Have you looked at the encumbrance rules? Or armor strength rules?

Also, I will remind you that she is one of the best ever. Evar. No one closer to a 20 strength has ever come close to challenging here abilities. You'd think if strength were the thing to have, bigger, stronger athletes would excel at gymnastics. Because if you google greatest Olympic gymnasts of all time, you will fine a long list of women who look much like here. Not a single one would look anything like having a 20 strength.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

The rest of her athletic competence would be, in D&D terms, the result of her experience, level, proficiency, and feats.

So again, then why aren't there any 20 strength athletes who have comparable experience, level, proficiency, and feats kicking here butt up and down the mat?

 

[Yaarel]

You think so? Have you looked at the encumbrance rules? Or armor strength rules?

Also, I will remind you that she is one of the best ever. Evar. No one closer to a 20 strength has ever come close to challenging here abilities. You'd think if strength were the thing to have, bigger, stronger athletes would excel at gymnastics. Because if you google greatest Olympic gymnasts of all time, you will fine a long list of women who look much like here. Not a single one would look anything like having a 20 strength.

Again, if it is possible to disconnect ‘weight training’ as a separate skill that requires training.

Then I would say that her Strength is 18.

I wouldnt say her Strength is 20, because women are statistically less strong than men. To find a reallife example of a gymnast with 20 Strength, I would look for gymnasts in the mens division.

 

[Yaarel]

This is Nadia Comăneci:

View attachment 74318

I also want to point out, in this picture, the gymnast is doing a straightforward, jump, utilizing the Strength ability.