D&D 5E what is it about 2nd ed that we miss?

[Tony Vargas]

Heroes fight through things that would incapacitate you or I. I don't see an issue with the arrow wound.

There's fighting through pain, then there's moving a limb that can't physically move anymore because the joint has a metal point jammed into it or a tendon severed or what have you. That's why I said 'impair' instead of 'incapacitate' and didn't allude to how painful the wound described would certainly be.

 

[Water Bob]

There's fighting through pain, then there's moving a limb that can't physically move anymore because the joint has a metal point jammed into it or a tendon severed or what have you. That's why I said 'impair' instead of 'incapacitate' and didn't allude to how painful the wound described would certainly be.

Back in the late 90's, I was in a Sea-Doo accident where I ended up with my back cracked in three places. I got up, hauled myself out of the water, and walked around a bit--even fought off the ambulance guys who were trying to convince me that I needed to go to the hospital.

I'm glad they convinced me, because, about 20 minutes later, I couldn't walk. I was in bed for a month and couldn't walk without a walker for another five months after that.

Had the impact happened because of a blow from a mace--a blow of the same type and energy--I could have easily fought on for another twenty minutes or so, only realizing how hurt I was after I stopped and the adrenaline subsided.

 

[ZzarkLinux]

Based on your example, and my earlier example, it sounds like all blunt-weapon attacks should do ongoing damage. "Whenever you take bludgeoning damage, you start losing 1HP per round" could do well to simulate real combat and shock, and add urgency to seek healing before it's too late. Suddenly, Giants and Golems are a real threat like they should be... and wizards everywhere will be terrified again.

Slashing weapons, I dunno. I guess it can stay "each attack gives a minor scratch" kinda deal.

Piercing weapons need a diagram of valid points where someone can be "hit with an arrow" and still be fully functional 6 round later. Something like this diagram would help DMs greatly, instead of saying "the tribal orc stabs you again, in the same hole as the last time, and you lose 5HP".

Hopefully WotC gives us these tools in 6e.

 

[pemerton]

Imagine a critical sword blow that causes 20 hit points of damage, and is enough to cause "ill effects" (0 hit points) on any first level character. The exact same sword blow, on a 15th level character, would be ...

The exact same blow is ambiguous, isn't it? If we look at it from the attacker's point of view, the exact same effort and skill against a 15th level character is parried, or dodged, or somewhat deflected; or just as the attacker is about to connect s/he slips slightly in the mud and the blow is merely glancing (that would be one way the defender's "luck and divine protection" might manifest); etc. Hence, the 15th level character is not badly hurt.

If we look at it from a perspective that includes both attack and defender, a 20 hp hit on a 15th level PC is not the exact same blow, precisely because the high level PC is luckier and more skilled.

Why do you think that serious wounds are always debilitating? Where do you get that from?

Not all wounds are mortal, but they can be serious physical wounds.

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I would hate to avoid telling a player that the arrows a rogue shot in his back (that did max damage) didn't actually stick in him. I really don't know how arrows that do max damage to an unsuspecting and unarmored victim don't actually penetrate flesh.

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Can you fight on with an arrow or two stuck in you? You sure can.

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Take a character who suffers a critical from a lance. In 2e you can tell the player a splinter went right into his neck. Now, a D&D cleric could come along and heal him to full. In 2e, the actual wound could be described. In 5e, the DM can't describe that wound because he'll be forced to house rule in fear that the knight will recover in a day or two without magic.

My response to this is similar to [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]'s: if you are happy to narrate "serious" wound that do not debilitate (the arrow in the back, the sliver in the neck) then what exactly is the concern that, after a day or two of rest, this non-debilitating wound has ceased to be any sort of burden on the wellbeing of the character?

there is a difference between soldiering on and regaining hit points.

I'm not sure why.

Or, rather, what exactly does hp recovery represent? If hp loss is being wounded, and hp recovery is healing those wounds, that gives rise to the question - why do 3 arrows in the shoulder not debilitate you, but the 4th kills you?

If hp loss signals an event of being driven towards defeat (because the character is grazed, or worn down, or loses some luck) then regaining hp means the character has come back from that wearing down. Which could be described as "soldiering on".

That 1 HP remaining on a clay golem could certainly be the result of several direct critical hits from a barbarian's great axe.

Gygax, in his DMG, is very clear that narration of hit point loss of monsters like dragons, golems etc is quite different from narrating hit point loss of PCs and NPCs. For the monsters, hit points are primarily "meat" or physical capacity.

 

[Maxperson]

There's fighting through pain, then there's moving a limb that can't physically move anymore because the joint has a metal point jammed into it or a tendon severed or what have you. That's why I said 'impair' instead of 'incapacitate' and didn't allude to how painful the wound described would certainly be.

Clearly, if the hit points aren't at 0 or lower, it didn't hit a joint or sever a tendon, yet still went deep.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Clearly, if the hit points aren't at 0 or lower, it didn't hit a joint or sever a tendon, yet still went deep.

Meh, if the arrow 'goes deep,' but courteously evades, muscle, bone, tendon, ligament, vein & nerve, so as to avoid inflicting any temporary impairment, permanent disability, or progressive damage, is that really any more plausible or 'serious' a wound than a scratch, bruise through armor, or Gygaxian pseudo-hit? No. You've got a nominal wound that has no effect but to degrade your plot armor, and there's no reason you can't get that plot armor back in the next scene by whatever means fits the story (a short rest, a little amateur first aid from the attractive victim you're rescuing, some genre-atypical glowy healing from a pious buddy, an experience, conversation or memory that re-iterates your commitment to the mission, or whatever).

The exact same blow is ambiguous, isn't it? If we look at it from the attacker's point of view, the exact same effort and skill against a 15th level character is parried, or dodged, or somewhat deflected; or just as the attacker is about to connect s/he slips slightly in the mud and the blow is merely glancing (that would be one way the defender's "luck and divine protection" might manifest); etc. Hence, the 15th level character is not badly hurt.

If we look at it from a perspective that includes both attack and defender, a 20 hp hit on a 15th level PC is not the exact same blow, precisely because the high level PC is luckier and more skilled.

So it is the 'exact same blow,' from the attacker's side, just with a different effect. I mean, the 'exact same blow' that decapitated an ogre will miss a Halfling, right?

Seriously, though, the rationalization EGG had in the 1e DMG was that hp damage that would run a normal person through only scratched the more experienced, higher-hp, fighter, due to skill, luck, 'sixth sense,' &c. So, same blow, same hp damage, completely different wound, same level of Cure Wounds spell required to get those hps back. While that rationalization explained the seeming absurdity of 70 hp humans riding 14 HP warhorses, it created it's own absurdity of non-proportional healing.

 

[Shasarak]

And yet your skill, luck, sixth sense etc all regenerated at an absurdly slow pace unless your constitution was high enough. That is a head scratcher for sure.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And yet your skill, luck, sixth sense etc all regenerated at an absurdly slow pace unless your constitution was high enough. That is a head scratcher for sure.

As I have pointed out repeatedly recovery of all HP in 2e is faster than real world marathon recovery even at high level. It's not "absurdly slow" for pure endurance; it's actually pretty fast for pure endurance (I don't think that real world marathon runners generally have a low CON).

It's only a headscratcher as long as you don't know how long genuine athletes take to recover.

And it's absurdly faster than any significant wound.

 

[hawkeyefan]

As I have pointed out repeatedly recovery of all HP in 2e is faster than real world marathon recovery even at high level. It's not "absurdly slow" for pure endurance; it's actually pretty fast for pure endurance (I don't think that real world marathon runners generally have a low CON).

It's only a headscratcher as long as you don't know how long genuine athletes take to recover.

And it's absurdly faster than any significant wound.

I thought his point was not about the physical constitution/wounds angle, but the luck, skill, sixth sense, combat prowess, etc. intangible ideas that regenerated at the same rate.

The point being if your HP are reflective of more than actual physical injury, then why was recovery based solely on constitution?

Convenient that luck came back at the same rate that a person healed in 2E.

 

[Shasarak]

As I have pointed out repeatedly recovery of all HP in 2e is faster than real world marathon recovery even at high level. It's not "absurdly slow" for pure endurance; it's actually pretty fast for pure endurance (I don't think that real world marathon runners generally have a low CON).

It's only a headscratcher as long as you don't know how long genuine athletes take to recover.

And it's absurdly faster than any significant wound.

I am not entirely sure how sixth sense recovery time relates directly to marathon running and on the other hand I do know that genuine athletes do run both ultra marathons and back to back marathons so I imagine that any hit point damage that they take is subdual at best.