D&D 5E Who raises the dead?

[Tony Vargas]

It has occurred to me that in 5th edition, a paradigm shift has occurred with regard to what was once the pinnacle of the cleric's abilities...raising of the dead.

I'll say. In AL, your dead 1-4th level characters got raised nightly by their respective factions. Now those are some serious health benefits.

Transmuters of 14th level can now raise dead once per day. This doesn't supplant the cleric, but it basically makes the transmuter a direct competitor.

OK, maybe they can, but are they in-Network?

The real problem is with the Wish spell.' In 5th edition, a Wish spell can duplicate resurrection for no material component cost and no XP cost. No cost, in fact, of any kind.

You may wish(pi) to assume there aren't a lot (or any) 17th-level wizards out there in general circulation. Maybe they get tired of every Ptom, Dikk, and Hairi asking them to raise loved ones, friends, acquaintances and pets ... "but it won't cost you anything Mr. Wizard... pleeeese...."

I have a problem with this. Do you?

Nah, I'd just go all old-school monkey's-paw on anyone who abuses wish - assuming I ever ran for 17th level PCs, which I don't see happening in 5e.

 

[devincutler]

The major consideration is that, by the time you reach level 17, there's nothing in the world that can threaten you. From the time you get there, until the end of the campaign, is what? Five sessions, maybe?

The unlikeliness of anyone dying during that time, in a manner that can't be fixed trivially with a 3rd level spell, makes the supremacy of Wish kind of pointless. Wish is flat-out better than Resurrection, in much the same way that Teleport is better than Dimension Door. When you get to high levels, your tools become way more efficient. That's just how it goes.

I mean, if you're worried about the mere 1000 GP that it takes to cast the spell, then keep in mind that a CR 17 monster is supposed to have thousands of GP, or hundreds of PP. Cash isn't supposed to be a meaningful limitation on Resurrection, by the time you get to level 17.

My concerns include campaign world logic and considerations as opposed to just PC considerations. That said, I am not sure that five sessions gets you from 17th level to the end of a campaign. Not only are there provisions in the DMG for going beyond that, but I don't think PCs tend to level up every 1 or 2 sessions at higher level.

In any event, wish also has the long term problem of avoiding all material component costs. In 3rd edition, Wish had a high cost (5,000 XP at least) and that made the spell a reserve for "oh crud" moments....for emergencies.

Now, it merely becomes the means for a high level wizard or sorcerer to be more effective than a cleric or druid in some respects, especially for effects that work out of combat, where the one wish per day limit doesn't matter. Or to spam spell effects that should not be spammed.

For example, lets look at the Symbol spell.

Symbol is a 7th level spell. So it is high level, and you get it 4 levels before Wish, so it's not that far removed. The spell lasts until discharged, so it can be spammed out of combat easily at 1 casting per day.

Clearly, the Symbol spell is balanced by the need to use a 1,000 gp gem as a consumable material component, to stop some wizard from casting symbol on every square inch of his tower.

In fact, even a 16th level wizard has to pay for that spell, again to keep it in check.

But that same 16th level wizard goes up 1 more level, and suddenly, using Wish, he can spam the heck out of that spell, casting it once per day anywhere he wants at no cost whatsoever. This is a problem. Material component costs were put onto spells to balance them and Wish comes along and discards that balance, as if there were no need for such things at 17th level. I find that troublesome.

And yes, I know I can house rule it (and have), but I think some thought should have been given by the designers to reign in Wish.

What I have done is say that Wish works as written if you supply the material components. That puts a 17th level wizard on par with a cleric, but not ahead of his (except for casting time). A Wish caster can forego a material component, but for each 1,000 gp of components not used, there is a chance that the wizard will become stressed and suffer the effects of stress under the Wish spell,. The chance is very low, but not negligible. It is enough to stop a 17th level wizard from spamming symbols or what have you will-nilly.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

My concerns include campaign world logic and considerations as opposed to just PC considerations.

I was going to touch on that, but the conclusion I reached is that playable campaign worlds should not include characters capable of casting the Wish spell. The difference between what a level 17 Wizard can do with a year of downtime, compared to a level 13 wizard, and especially compared to a level-anything non-spellcaster, is just ridiculous.

It's actually a major setting detail in the game I'm currently running, where the party is level 15/16 and will be level 17 in just a few weeks. The Big Bad has acquired both the Eye of Caven and the Hand of Caven, and can now cast Wish creatively without risk of permanent stress (clones are involved). There are other powerful wizards within the setting, but they have all been stressed out of Wish since long before the campaign began, or else they would be as disruptive as you have imagined.

 

[Radaceus]

You do understand that the cleric also pays gold pieces for all of those spells and they take a long time to cast...right?

Yes, in the heat of combat a Wish might not be used. But given the Wish can duplicate a Resurrection, so you have 100 years to revive people, it all but guarantees that all PCs are revived for free all the time.

you mean the Diamond worth 500gp for Raise dead?

or the one for 300 gp for Revivify?

chump change for a level 14 Cleric...er party fund, because that cost IS coming out of the party fund I assure you!

please visit the DMG, and roll for random treasure on the 11-16 chart, and then take note the comment on DMG pg133, that a party, on average, rolls for treasure about 12 times on this chart...so lets say that is by level 16... a level 14 party would have rolled about 9x on the CR 11-16 Treasure Hoard chart...

now take into account how many times a PC has died...

do the math for the deaths, and subtract from the total. Yep, not an issue...

 

[Radaceus]

BTW revivify= 1 action, this alone trumps the Transmuters 14th level ability

 

[devincutler]

you mean the Diamond worth 500gp for Raise dead?

or the one for 300 gp for Revivify?

chump change for a level 14 Cleric...er party fund, because that cost IS coming out of the party fund I assure you!

please visit the DMG, and roll for random treasure on the 11-16 chart, and then take note the comment on DMG pg133, that a party, on average, rolls for treasure about 12 times on this chart...so lets say that is by level 16... a level 14 party would have rolled about 9x on the CR 11-16 Treasure Hoard chart...

now take into account how many times a PC has died...

do the math for the deaths, and subtract from the total. Yep, not an issue...

Ah...I see. Your PCs don't have anything else to spend on. Not lifestyle (which should be wealthy for such lofty levelled PCs). Not a stronghold. Not retainers. Not costly material components. Nope. Nothing but sitting around waiting to pay for raise dead.

BTW revivify= 1 action, this alone trumps the Transmuters 14th level ability

BTW, Revivify only works for 1 minute. That doesn't trump the Transmuter's ability...does it?

 

[ccs]

My concerns include campaign world logic and considerations as opposed to just PC considerations. That said, I am not sure that five sessions gets you from 17th level to the end of a campaign. Not only are there provisions in the DMG for going beyond that, but I don't think PCs tend to level up every 1 or 2 sessions at higher level.

In any event, wish also has the long term problem of avoiding all material component costs. In 3rd edition, Wish had a high cost (5,000 XP at least) and that made the spell a reserve for "oh crud" moments....for emergencies.

Now, it merely becomes the means for a high level wizard or sorcerer to be more effective than a cleric or druid in some respects, especially for effects that work out of combat, where the one wish per day limit doesn't matter. Or to spam spell effects that should not be spammed.

For example, lets look at the Symbol spell.

Symbol is a 7th level spell. So it is high level, and you get it 4 levels before Wish, so it's not that far removed. The spell lasts until discharged, so it can be spammed out of combat easily at 1 casting per day.

Clearly, the Symbol spell is balanced by the need to use a 1,000 gp gem as a consumable material component, to stop some wizard from casting symbol on every square inch of his tower.

In fact, even a 16th level wizard has to pay for that spell, again to keep it in check.

But that same 16th level wizard goes up 1 more level, and suddenly, using Wish, he can spam the heck out of that spell, casting it once per day anywhere he wants at no cost whatsoever. This is a problem. Material component costs were put onto spells to balance them and Wish comes along and discards that balance, as if there were no need for such things at 17th level. I find that troublesome.

And yes, I know I can house rule it (and have), but I think some thought should have been given by the designers to reign in Wish.

What I have done is say that Wish works as written if you supply the material components. That puts a 17th level wizard on par with a cleric, but not ahead of his (except for casting time). A Wish caster can forego a material component, but for each 1,000 gp of components not used, there is a chance that the wizard will become stressed and suffer the effects of stress under the Wish spell,. The chance is very low, but not negligible. It is enough to stop a 17th level wizard from spamming symbols or what have you will-nilly.

Oh yes, there's a problem in there all right. But it's not what you think it is.

 

[ccs]

It has occurred to me that in 5th edition, a paradigm shift has occurred with regard to what was once the pinnacle of the cleric's abilities...raising of the dead.

Transmuters of 14th level can now raise dead once per day. This doesn't supplant the cleric, but it basically makes the transmuter a direct competitor.

The real problem is with the Wish spell. In 3rd edition wizards and sorcerers could use Wish to raise the dead, but not resurrect and it cost 5,000 XP.'

In 5th edition, a Wish spell can duplicate resurrection for no material component cost and no XP cost. No cost, in fact, of any kind.

This means, at high level, wizards are the premiere resurrectors. There's simply no reason for a cleric to ever take the spell or use it, given that it costs a lot of gold pieces.

I have a problem with this. Do you? If so, what should be done? Should there be some penalty for casting Wish? Or should it only duplicate arcane spells?

In answer to those questions; No, nothing, no, & no.

 

[Radaceus]

Ah...I see. Your PCs don't have anything else to spend on. Not lifestyle (which should be wealthy for such lofty levelled PCs). Not a stronghold. Not retainers. Not costly material components. Nope. Nothing but sitting around waiting to pay for raise dead.



BTW, Revivify only works for 1 minute. That doesn't trump the Transmuter's ability...does it?

now you're just trolling
but...

a) did you roll on the treasure hoard tables? then your answer is no they are not just waiting around ( which I assume you mean 'saving up') to cast raise dead, because they dont need to worry over 500gp

b) revivify, you have not read the spell...it raises dead but only to 1 HP, it must be cast within 1 minute of dying. Popquiz: how much time passes in the average encounter ( in any version of D&D)? answer: around about 30 seconds to a minute. 5-10 melees/actions.

 

[devincutler]

now you're just trolling
but...

a) did you roll on the treasure hoard tables? then your answer is no they are not just waiting around ( which I assume you mean 'saving up') to cast raise dead, because they dont need to worry over 500gp

b) revivify, you have not read the spell...it raises dead but only to 1 HP, it must be cast within 1 minute of dying. Popquiz: how much time passes in the average encounter ( in any version of D&D)? answer: around about 30 seconds to a minute. 5-10 melees/actions.

No, not trolling. Didn't realize you were the arbiter of trolldom.

Did you look at some of the current adventure paths and how much coin they give through level 14? It's not that much. Have you seen, depending on the pace of your campaign, how much daily living expenses cost? Have you checked out the maintenance costs for strongholds and hirelings?

Look, if all your PCs do is hop from one adventure to another collecting coins from the hoard tables, then maybe money doesn't matter to them. On the other hand, if you actually run a campaign, money can be tight. 100 gp each time you cast Stoneskin, plenty of other spells requiring expensive consumable material components. It can add up.

I do know the Revivify spell. And I know how it works. What's your point? That PCs will always be able to cast it within a minute of death? First of all, you assume it is only the PCs needing raising. Not always true. Additionally, I've seen many situations where PCs can't get to their companion within a minute of falling? Do I really need to spell out the many possible ways this can happen? I can if you need help.