D&D 5E Is Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting a good spell?

[flametitan]

I at least get the feeling Fireball and Meteor Swarm are supposed to be balanced out by their sheer destructive potential.

A fireball sets fire to everything that can be set on fire. This doesn't seem so bad when fighting in your standard mostly stone dungeon, but when you change the location of a fight to something like in the middle of a dry field, or a wooden building (Or at least one that's being used), you're going to create problems casting fireball.

Likewise, the flavour text for Meteor swarm is dropping rocks from the skies above, which some DMs may rule as destroying whatever's above what you wanted to hit, if you're able to cast it at all. Not to mention that its sheer area of effect and damage output would likely destroy a significant portion of the town it was cast in, which is never healthy for a caster's reputation.

Does it work as a balancing mechanism? Perhaps not, but it should be considered.

 

[Orius]

5e nerfed the spell but kept the level.

2e is 1d8/level.
3.0 is 1d8/caster level to a max of 25d8.
3.5:

Horrid Wilting
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 8, Water 8
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Targets: Living creatures, no two of which can be more than 60 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell evaporates moisture from the body of each subject living creature, dealing 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d6). This spell is especially devastating to water elementals and plant creatures, which instead take 1d8 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d8).

5e: flat 10d8

2e is a minumum of 16d8, 3.0 15d8, and 3.5 15d6 (except plants and elementals which get hit like 3.0). 2e has a slightly higher minimum because 8th level spells aren't available until level 16, where 3e switched to all new spell levels at odd levels.

Average damage:

2e: 72 minimum, no damage cap (but how many 2e games go well past the 20s?).
3.0: 67.5 minimum, 112.5 maximum.
3.5: 52.5 minimum, 90 (err, that's supposed to be 70) maximum.
5e: 45.

 

[hachface]

Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting exists to give necromancer wizards a decently powerful direct damage spell that they can use to activate their Grim Harvest subclass feature. It patches a hole in the PHB spell list. It's also handy if you are facing down a copse of ornery treants. Non-necromancers can safely omit it in favor of an upscaled fireball.

 

[Zardnaar]

Has not been good since 2000/1991. WHat made it good in 2E was a lot of spells were capped at 10d6/15d6 (or d8's) in damage.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...everybody thinks is lame...

That's not a fact.

Horrid is a waste of its space.

Neither is this.

You'd think it wouldn't matter so much if Horrid regained some of its past notoriety since Meteor Storm will still remain the more unbalanced spell...

I'd think people concerned with balance would aim for balance, rather than for further removing the balance from the game by making the balanced spells as unbalanced as the unbalanced spells already are.

I'd also think that people not concerned with balance would not find issue with Abi-Dhalzim's horrid wilting not matching the damage potential of meteor swarm.

 

[CapnZapp]

Okay, so your suggestion is to keep all further high level damage spells from being used.

(You know as well as I do that Meteor Storm isn't going to be nerfed any time soon, so why the insistence on making every other spell so crappy? Perhaps your a fire wizard in another life...)

Meanwhile (and now I think I'm done with you Aaron, so now I'm addressing the rest of the readership) the correct response is:

If you want to add a damage spell that follows the damage guidelines, for christ's sake, make it low-level and upgradeable.

If Horrid were half its level, and had its exact same damage when cast in a 8th level slot, it would be okay.

And then have the few truly high level spells (the ones you can't cast until you're level 13-15 or so) have fun with the formula, much like several posters have suggested.

If fire's thing is massive damage, then necrotic could have any other "rider".

For instance, the spell's damage can probably be kept intact if it lowers maximum hit points.

Or carries a slow effect. Or something that makes it worthy of an 8th level slot.

Not just a "necrotic fireball".

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Okay, so your suggestion is to keep all further high level damage spells from being used.

I've made no such suggestion - you are the one saying only the most damaging damage spell will be chosen; I'm the one that said I don't think that is a fact.

You know as well as I do that Meteor Storm isn't going to be nerfed any time soon, so why the insistence on making every other spell so crappy?

That's an issue of perception.

You see one "normal" spell (meteor swarm) and a bunch of "crappy" spells (like horrid wilting).
I see one "overly potent" spell (meteor swarm) and a bunch of "normal" spells (like horrid wilting).

I'm not the one insisting on making anything any different than it already is - I'm just pointing out that the logically sound stances on this matter are A) Not care about balance and find the current spells acceptable as a result, and B) Care about balance and desire to fix the unbalanced elements as a result, not the stance of C) Care about balance and desire to intentionally unbalance additional elements as a result which you seem to be taking.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry but if your "perception" always frees the designers of blame we're done.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I have to admit that discussions like these, that all too often turn to heated discussions, always throw me off a bit. Why? Because we're talking about end game type of stuff. You have to be 17th level just to get meteor swarm, and who ever really gets that high? Hardly anyone, and once you hit that final tier, D&D has almost always been crazy town anyway. The floodgates get opened of zany and powerful magic. So why do we spend so much time and energy arguing over something that most of us won't ever experience anyway? Even AHW is an 8th level spell, which requires level 15. I'll grant that more people will hit that due to the fixed level gains of HotDQ/RoT, but still, it's not one of the core original spells in the PBH, it's similar damage to a fireball at the same level, and certain targets have disadvantage against it. I guess from my POV, the differences are minor and hardly anyone would ever run into the problem. I mean, Aaron and CapnZapp, how many 15th level or higher wizards have you played?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Sorry but if your "perception" always frees the designers of blame we're done.

That isn't the case, you are just using that accusation as an excuse to ignore anything I say which you might not like to actually think about.

Shouting me down as some apologist that can see no wrong in the game doesn't actually give your opinion more weight or make it seem more reasonable.