D&D 5E (2014) Can a Fireball melt ice FOR REALZ?

[CapnZapp]

Like the other thread, but without the need to choose sides.

 

[JonnyP71]

If the DM wants it to.

 

[Blue]

Thanks [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] for this poll. The other was so black and white, ignores that there's a DM specifically so they can rule on the situation (both the in-game environment and what's best for the table and fun).

 

[ExploderWizard]

Not all ice is created equal. The thinner/more fragile the ice the more likely it will be susceptible to quick bursts of heat. A delicate ice sculpture might suffer some deformity but a wall of ice 5' thick might barely do anything other than get a bit more slippery from such a blast.

 

[Agamon]

Put an ice cube in a fire and see how long it takes to melt. Then consider how long a fireball lasts. Then consider how this is a game and think how it might be cool to allow it to slag lead and gold without burning anyone's pants off...

 

[ProphetSword]

I think a more important question is whether Ice Storm can put out a fire.

 

[happyhermit]

Not all ice is created equal. The thinner/more fragile the ice the more likely it will be susceptible to quick bursts of heat. A delicate ice sculpture might suffer some deformity but a wall of ice 5' thick might barely do anything other than get a bit more slippery from such a blast.

That is actually a good point, from a "physics" perspective. Having melted ice with a "Tiger torch" (big propane torch), melting any significant quantity takes a LONG time. Not only does water take a huge amount of energy to heat, but the heat of fusion soaks up a lot as well. There is also the fact that it is hard to melt ice with radiant heat, have had plenty of bonfires on ice or in the snow, and it is surprising how small of an area is effected.

If the fireball is being compared to "real" fire and the duration is "instantaneous" then it is hard to imagine anything more than a very thin layer of ice melting. That is all that happens with a propane gas explosion for example. It would have to be some magical property of the fireball that would allow it to melt any real quantity of ice.


Of course, that is the physics of the situation. What it really comes down to is the GM's ruling and whether or not it works or is "cool" for that time/place/game.

 

[77IM]

To me the more interesting question is: What do you do when the DM and player disagree on what should happen?

Like, the player is casting fireball in an area covered in a thin sheet of ice and wants it to melt the ice. But the DM thinks the explosion is too rapid to impart enough heat to actually melt the ice. What then?

My standard answer is: make an ability check. In this case, I'd tell the player to make an Intelligence check to have their character apply the fireball in such a way as to melt the ice (angling it just right; altering the casting to slow down the explosion slightly; etc.). Probably DC 10, because that's about a 50/50 chance, but maybe DC 15 or 20 if I feel the player's reasoning is super weak.

 

[Satyrn]

Like, the player is casting fireball in an area covered in a thin sheet of ice and wants it to melt the ice. But the DM thinks the explosion is too rapid to impart enough heat to actually melt the ice. What then?

I hope that I would decide to make it, initially, a partial success for the player leading to a complete success over some reasonable time span that is interesting story - wise.

In this case, that would be "the ice starts to crumble, giving the foes standing on it just enough time to escape off it - unless the players do something more to stop that."

 

[Ahglock]

That is actually a good point, from a "physics" perspective. Having melted ice with a "Tiger torch" (big propane torch), melting any significant quantity takes a LONG time. Not only does water take a huge amount of energy to heat, but the heat of fusion soaks up a lot as well. There is also the fact that it is hard to melt ice with radiant heat, have had plenty of bonfires on ice or in the snow, and it is surprising how small of an area is effected.

If the fireball is being compared to "real" fire and the duration is "instantaneous" then it is hard to imagine anything more than a very thin layer of ice melting. That is all that happens with a propane gas explosion for example. It would have to be some magical property of the fireball that would allow it to melt any real quantity of ice.


Of course, that is the physics of the situation. What it really comes down to is the GM's ruling and whether or not it works or is "cool" for that time/place/game.

What flame would you compare it to though? It's a 20' radius volume of fire that is intense enough to instantly kill a elk not bring it to 0 but - its own HP. It kills a guard and vs s commoner it kills them multiple times over. It's intense enough to shatter a inch of stone in a wall of stone spell. There obviously is a level and volume of heat that would melt that ice cube and much larger chunks of ice instantly. How long would a glacier last if thrown into the sun? Is a fireball as hot as the sun? I doubt it, but it's also probably many many orders of magnitude hotter than a campfire or torch or whatever real world example used so far.

HP being an abstract concept these game facts of what it kills and destroys can help shape an opinion. But any answer works. In your world when it ignites flammable objects is it a slow smolder a spark and small flame do the burst into a roaring fire. Again any answer works as HP are abstract.

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