D&D 5E Concentration spells over 10 minutes can be a pain in the a**

[auburn2]

Sneak attack dmg can be done consistently as long as the ennemy target is within 5' of an ally. RAW and RAI.

And please do not assume that I don't know how to handle combat. I do know how to, I have quite a long experience behind me in all editions and even other rpg (35 years of DMing should count). I'm not afraid to PK or even TPK if the events leading to that are justified by players actions or inactions. But beside that, your comments are quite welcome and appreciated. Thx a lot.

sorry. I am not assuming you don't know how to handle combat, sorry if it came across that way. I've had a similar discussion regarding SA several times on this forum though and it is not super easy to do in my campaigns. Our rogue gets it often enough, but not consistently such that it can be counted on every round so as to be considered in his normal DPR. Terrain permitting a rogue can get within 5 feet of an ally most of the time, however an enemy can at times make it difficult to get that positioning and when you can get it they can still stop SA by imposing disadvantage.

Aside from movement/positioning or targeting the rogue with SOS here are the more common ways SA is mitigated in my campaign: Dodge stops SA cold on that character completely (albeit at a heavy cost), darkness also usually eliminates it completely, blur eliminates it unless the rogue can be within 5 feet if an ally and somehow cancel disadvantage. Grapple will eliminate it if successful, shove will limit the rogues mobility and ability to maneuver and if the intended target is predictable can be used on the ally (to move him further than 5') or as a ready action on the Rogue himself. Grease can be used repeatedly on the battlefield to control the rogues approaches or force a save in order to not have disadvantage. These are things that have all been used in my campaign by the DM specifically to limit SA. Shove and grapple are attempted in most battles, usually as a counter to SA.

Sometimes it is not in the best interest for the enemy to do these kinds of things, and all of them come at a cost, meaning even if the rogue is not getting SA, the threat of SA is still helping the party by making the enemy counter it even when it is not being counted as hp damage. But given the damage boost and the Rogues inherent mobility most intelligent enemies will attempt to counter SA or at least limit who it can be used on once they know it is coming. On the flip side my party generally does that too when facing a rogue.

 

[Flamestrike]

A battlemaster cannot enable a rogue to get 2 sneak attacks per round unless you have houseruled something (broken). The main way for a rogue to get 2 sneak attacks is hope for an OA or get hasted and ready an action on the off turn and attack on this turn.


Matchematically this should present no problems beyond the ranger being able to get 3.5 more per attack with flame arrows (won't be a problem) or either class being able to use CC spells while doing normal damage.

As pointed out Commanders strike.

As you rightly retort however, that extra damage is due to the Fighter, not the Rogue.

There is another way to get a third sneak attack. Via action surge.

You use your action to sneak attack. Then you action surge, using the extra action for the ready action. You ready the attack action to happen linked to a trigger later in the round.

 

[Arial Black]

As pointed out Commanders strike.

As you rightly retort however, that extra damage is due to the Fighter, not the Rogue.

There is another way to get a third sneak attack. Via action surge.

You use your action to sneak attack. Then you action surge, using the extra action for the ready action. You ready the attack action to happen linked to a trigger later in the round.

So....how do you get a third SA?

You take the Attack action on your turn, attack, and SA applies. You Action Surge, and take the Ready action in the hopes that when it is triggered your SA will apply.

Great, the baddy triggers your Readied attack, so you choose to use your reaction to take your readied action attack (which is how the Ready action works!) and SA applies, so you've used SA twice this round.

So how can you get a third SA? It can't be a BM friend with Commander's Strike, because that requires you to use your reaction and you only get one reaction per round.

It can't be an AoO, because that requires your reaction too.

Sentinel feat? Reaction.

If you can think of a way to get a third SA, please tell us. I'm playing a multiclass Rogue/BM right now, and this would be valuable information!

 

[Flamestrike]

So....how do you get a third SA?

You take the Attack action on your turn, attack, and SA applies. You Action Surge, and take the Ready action in the hopes that when it is triggered your SA will apply.

Great, the baddy triggers your Readied attack, so you choose to use your reaction to take your readied action attack (which is how the Ready action works!) and SA applies, so you've used SA twice this round.

So how can you get a third SA? It can't be a BM friend with Commander's Strike, because that requires you to use your reaction and you only get one reaction per round.

It can't be an AoO, because that requires your reaction too.

Sentinel feat? Reaction.

If you can think of a way to get a third SA, please tell us. I'm playing a multiclass Rogue/BM right now, and this would be valuable information!

Ah yeah, its just a single reaction.

 

[Helldritch]

sorry. I am not assuming you don't know how to handle combat, sorry if it came across that way. I've had a similar discussion regarding SA several times on this forum though and it is not super easy to do in my campaigns. Our rogue gets it often enough, but not consistently such that it can be counted on every round so as to be considered in his normal DPR. Terrain permitting a rogue can get within 5 feet of an ally most of the time, however an enemy can at times make it difficult to get that positioning and when you can get it they can still stop SA by imposing disadvantage.

Aside from movement/positioning or targeting the rogue with SOS here are the more common ways SA is mitigated in my campaign: Dodge stops SA cold on that character completely (albeit at a heavy cost), darkness also usually eliminates it completely, blur eliminates it unless the rogue can be within 5 feet if an ally and somehow cancel disadvantage. Grapple will eliminate it if successful, shove will limit the rogues mobility and ability to maneuver and if the intended target is predictable can be used on the ally (to move him further than 5') or as a ready action on the Rogue himself. Grease can be used repeatedly on the battlefield to control the rogues approaches or force a save in order to not have disadvantage. These are things that have all been used in my campaign by the DM specifically to limit SA. Shove and grapple are attempted in most battles, usually as a counter to SA.

Sometimes it is not in the best interest for the enemy to do these kinds of things, and all of them come at a cost, meaning even if the rogue is not getting SA, the threat of SA is still helping the party by making the enemy counter it even when it is not being counted as hp damage. But given the damage boost and the Rogues inherent mobility most intelligent enemies will attempt to counter SA or at least limit who it can be used on once they know it is coming. On the flip side my party generally does that too when facing a rogue.

Ho now I see why your rogues do not get their SA with consistency. The RAW and RAI of SA do not require for the rogue to be within 5' of an ally but requires that an ally be within 5' of an ennemy or that the rogue has advantage on the roll. Not both.

So preventing the rogue from getting SA becomes a bit more arduous.
And so far, I have not seen any way to get more than two SA for a rogue.

 

[auburn2]

but requires that an ally be within 5' of an ennemy or that the rogue has advantage on the roll. Not both.

So preventing the rogue from getting SA becomes a bit more arduous.

That is only half of it: "You don't need advantage if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantagel"

As I said in the post the rogue can usually solve the positioning concern, it is mostly the disadvantage part that can be hard to overcome on a consistent basis against enemies that know SA is available.

In terms of being arduous, I would not say it is difficult to take away SA. It is simple to stop SA (worst case dodge will do it almost every time), but depending on what the enemies have available it can be very costly. It takes at least one action some time during the battle that could be used for something else and will often take one or more actions every round to keep the Rogue from using SA.

 

[77IM]

If your concentration lasts more than four hours, contact your physician.

 

[Arial Black]

That is only half of it: "You don't need advantage if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantagel"

As I said in the post the rogue can usually solve the positioning concern, it is mostly the disadvantage part that can be hard to overcome on a consistent basis against enemies that know SA is available.

In terms of being arduous, I would not say it is difficult to take away SA. It is simple to stop SA (worst case dodge will do it almost every time), but depending on what the enemies have available it can be very costly. It takes at least one action some time during the battle that could be used for something else and will often take one or more actions every round to keep the Rogue from using SA.

Dodge will impose disadvantage, and disadvantage prevents SA.

But neither Dodge nor disadvantage prevents you from getting advantage. All it does is that advantage and disadvantage cancel out, leaving the rogue getting SA through positioning.

It's part of the chess game going on in combat. The baddies know about SA, so do things to impose disadvantage on the rogue (dodge, blur, whatever).

Meanwhile, the rogue knows that they know, so he tries to get advantage (inspiration, Reckless Attack, faerie fire, whatever) and rely on positioning.

And this metaphorical chess game is very enjoyable and satisfying.

 

[brehobit]

Hex is in the same boat as hunter's mark. Warlock does about 15% of the HP of an equivalent level monster at most levels up until level 17. That's including Hex. A Fighter is doing around 25%. A Ranger is doing about 20%.

Hex having concentration isn't needed for balance and it just heavily limits the Warlock's playstyle more than it already is.

I go back and forth on this, but mostly I'll disagree.

A warlock already does a ton of cantrip damage compared to other casters (assuming they take the CHR to damage power)--no one else gets to add their stat to every attack with a cantrip. And Warlocks _also_ have spells they can pull out--no fighter can hit 5 people for 8d6 damage each. Warlock's cantrip damage is greater than anyone else's, and keeps with with a ranged fighter/ranger for the most part (in particular if feats aren't allowed the warlock is doing about the same damage as a dedicated archer even without hex, just missing that +2 to attack).

 

[Helldritch]

I go back and forth on this, but mostly I'll disagree.

A warlock already does a ton of cantrip damage compared to other casters (assuming they take the CHR to damage power)--no one else gets to add their stat to every attack with a cantrip. And Warlocks _also_ have spells they can pull out--no fighter can hit 5 people for 8d6 damage each. Warlock's cantrip damage is greater than anyone else's, and keeps with with a ranged fighter/ranger for the most part (in particular if feats aren't allowed the warlock is doing about the same damage as a dedicated archer even without hex, just missing that +2 to attack).

Spell casters are spell casters after all. Yes the warlock can do a lot of cantrip damage but remember that what he has in raw power, he lacks in spell versatility. The warlock won't cast zounds of spells like a sorcerer or wizard will.

Even without concentration, Hex will only be 1d6. The warlock, on the other hand, does not have boosting dmg spell other than that (unless I'm mistaken). That will not help him out greatly. The ranger however, has flame arrows and it benefits him greatly to keep on par with other members.

We have implemented the "No concentration" on Hunter's mark and Hex for a few games now (2 to be precise) and we are surprisingly pleased to see the results. The ranger is doing quite well now and the combo flame arrow does not come often into consideration as most of the time, he prefers to keep a few healing spells in reserves in case of an emergency. So far, the game has no balance issue.