D&D 5E Do you know a creatures location if they are in heavy concealment but not actively hiding and other location questions

[Prakriti]

Why would some of these situations not use the hide action?

Some would, depending on the circumstances. Using the first example, however, here's how it would play out in a narrative fashion:

The player wants to flee a group of thugs on the streets of Waterdeep. He throws down a smoke-bomb and, unseen by the thugs, dashes down the left alley-way. Some of the thugs draw back, stunned and confused, while others dart into the smoke-cloud, surprised when they don't see the rogue on the other side. When the smoke finally clears, the thugs realize that the player must have slipped down an alley-way, so they split up in pursuit.

The above scenario is found in movies, books, comic-books -- pretty much every fictional genre you can think of. It's what makes sense to players, and it's how they expect heavy concealment to work.

But here's how the same scenario plays out in a purely mechanical fashion:

As before, the player wants to flee a group of thugs on the streets of Waterdeep. He throws down a smoke-bomb and, unseen by the thugs, dashes down the left alley-way. On their next turn, however, the thugs follow him, because they know exactly where he went and how far he ran.

Sorry, but that's lame.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

As before, the player wants to flee a group of thugs on the streets of Waterdeep. He throws down a smoke-bomb and, unseen by the thugs, dashes down the left alley-way. On their next turn, however, the thugs follow him, because they know exactly where he went and how far he ran.

Unless he's a rogue, level 2 or higher, in which case he throws down a smoke-bomb and immediately uses his bonus action to hide, at which point he then dashes down the left alley-way. On their next turn, the thugs have to make a Wisdom (Perception) check to figure out where he went, and probably fail because they're just thugs.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So, then, to be clear, you're saying that you know what space the goblin is in at all times, wven around a corner in an area you haven't yet seen?

Followup. The explored area around the corner also has 2 trolls in it who aren't hiding. Do you also know what space they're in, or that they are there?

2nd followup. There's another few unexplored corridors past the trolls with a few more corners leading to a large chamber. There is an ogre in the chamber, who is not hiding. Do you know own what space the ogre is in? Are you aware of the ogre?

I'm just trying to figure out where the turtles stop.

If you can't target the target, it doesn't matter what square it is in. It is an unnecessary question to ask.

As far as the trolls are concerned... if they aren't trying to hide, then sure. There are a couple trolls around the corner doing whatever normal stuff trolls are doing when they aren't concerned with hiding from someone. In this case, it's probably the trolls asking the goblin "What the hell is your problem, pipsqueak? Why you running?" But if the trolls were trying to keep quiet, then the DM would have rolled DEX (Stealth) checks for them.

As far as the ogre even further away is concerned... that's a DM ruling on whether they think the ogre is far enough away to be out of ear/air/smellshot. If it is, then it doesn't matter whether it's hiding or not, and what square it is or isn't in.

 

[Prakriti]

You can see the wake of the fleeing rogue left in the smoke. The invisible man has a peculiar smell to him. The blinded monster can smell the scent of its attackers. All those are reasonable roleplay reasons that explain the disadvantage mechanic in those scenarios.

We ran into this issue in the (now gone) weapon of warning thread. Basically, there are two ways to approach the game: mechanics-first or narrative-first. When there is a conflict between mechanics and narrative, do you adjust the mechanics to fit the narrative, or do you adjust the narrative to fit the mechanics? Neither is right or wrong, but I tend toward the former school of thought. If the existing mechanics can't accurately portray a well-known narrative convention (and thereby prevent my players from playing out their fantasies), then I will adjust them.

 

[Prakriti]

Unless he's a rogue, level 1 or higher, in which case he throws down a smoke-bomb and immediately uses his bonus action to hide, at which point he then dashes down the left alley-way. On their next turn, the thugs have to make a Wisdom (Perception) check to figure out where he went, and probably fail because they're just thugs.

Not quite. The rogue needs to use his bonus action to hide AND reduce his movement by half in order to move stealthily. I'm not sure if that's two separate Stealth rolls (one to hide and one to move silently), but either way, he only moves about 15' away from the encounter.

From a narrative perspective, this makes little sense. If the rogue's intent is to evade the thugs, then he would probably run all-out, dropping the smoke-bomb to cover his trail, and using his action and bonus action to dash (for 90 ft. of movement). From a narrative perspective, he should be able to do all that AND have a chance to elude his pursuers, because that's how the narrative convention works.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Not quite. The rogue needs to use his bonus action to hide AND reduce his movement by half in order to move stealthily. I'm not sure if that's two separate Stealth rolls (one to hide and one to move silently), but either way, he only moves about 15' away from the encounter.

Probably only one check, but a bad DM could say it takes anywhere between two and twelve checks. Bad DMs have been doing that sort of thing for decades. And I can't find anything in the basic rules about going at half speed. The closest I've found is that a level 9 rogue thief gets advantage to stealth if they move at half speed.

From a narrative perspective, this makes little sense. If the rogue's intent is to evade the thugs, then he would probably run all-out, dropping the smoke-bomb to cover his trail, and using his action and bonus action to dash (for 90 ft. of movement). From a narrative perspective, he should be able to do all that AND have a chance to elude his pursuers, because that's how the narrative convention works.

It depends on the narrative. I can imagine someone turning and sprinting away at full speed, but that's a different narrative from someone who throws a smoke bomb and then hides nearby while pretending to have run away.

In any case, it's probably going to take either your action or bonus action to use the smoke bomb, so at best you could make it 60' if you double move instead of trying to hide. So your options are:
1) Just run 90 feet (move + action + bonus).
2) Throw a bomb (action) and run 60 feet (move + bonus).
3) Throw a bomb (action) and hide (bonus) somewhere within 30 feet (move).
4) Throw a bomb (action) and carefully hide (bonus) within 15 feet (move) if you're a level 9 thief.

Those are all different and meaningful options which are available to rogues. They're all different narratives, and they're all supported by the rules.

 

[Plaguescarred]

From a mechanic or narrative standpoint, using a screen and running is not an effective way to conceal your position IMO. Running makes a lot of noise, especially fully geared up. The screen from the smoke-bomb would still provide some level of obscurement but running would make hiding impracticable.

The invisible creature can take the hide action to evasedrop.

The blinded creature effectively has difficulty spotting creatures since it can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight, attacks against it have advantage, and it's attacks have disadvantage and meanwhile everyone around it can now try to hide.

 

[Prakriti]

And I can't find anything in the basic rules about going at half speed. The closest I've found is that a level 9 rogue thief gets advantage to stealth if they move at half speed.

Maybe that's where I got the idea from, but I was pretty sure that stealth required slow movement. At least in overland travel, this is the case.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Maybe that's where I got the idea from, but I was pretty sure that stealth required slow movement.

I think it might be a carry-over from an older edition. As with many things in 5E, they inverted a common penalty by turning it into a situational advantage when the penalty wouldn't apply.

 

[Ovinomancer]

If you can't target the target, it doesn't matter what square it is in. It is an unnecessary question to ask.

That is a very interesting position to take. I mean, the ability to target something can be obscured in multiple ways. Say, for instance, the corner the goblin ran around was the end of an illusionary wall, and, in reality, the pcs have a clear line of effect through the illusionary wall to the goblin. Would they then get the location information, indicating that there is a clear line of effect, or would it be hidden from them because they don't yet know the wall is illusionary?

What if a player wants to know if the goblin is withing 20' of the corner because, if so, they'll launch a fireball to catch the fleeing goblin in the radius? Do they get more precise information, despite the inability to target the goblin directly, because they've engaged a AOE?

What if the player in question is a fighter without ranged weapons? Do they lose the knowledge of precise location because a target is heavily obscured and outside their reach? They have no means to target, at that point, so do they lose track of the location of the target?

So many things wrapped up in that statement of 'if you can't target the target, it doesn't matter what square it's in.'

As far as the trolls are concerned... if they aren't trying to hide, then sure. There are a couple trolls around the corner doing whatever normal stuff trolls are doing when they aren't concerned with hiding from someone. In this case, it's probably the trolls asking the goblin "What the hell is your problem, pipsqueak? Why you running?" But if the trolls were trying to keep quiet, then the DM would have rolled DEX (Stealth) checks for them.

I find this an interesting statement also. You're essentially saying that all creatures must, at any time within some detection radius of the players (more later) be either attempting to hide or engaging in very noticeable behavior. You've declared that NPCs must be acting in a noticeable manner to justify the means by which the PCs automatically notice them. That's... odd. Does this also mean that PCs are talking or moving loudly at all times they aren't hiding? Do enemies always know where the PCs are because the PCs are asking loud questions and being noticeable when not hiding?

As far as the ogre even further away is concerned... that's a DM ruling on whether they think the ogre is far enough away to be out of ear/air/smellshot. If it is, then it doesn't matter whether it's hiding or not, and what square it is or isn't in.

Ah, so there is agreement that an enemy may be unnoticed without hiding. We're now just negotiating the distance.

But let's unpack this a bit. The ogre is really smelly. The players are at the edge of the range by which they smell the ogre. You now say that they're aware of the exact location of the ogre, provided there's some line of effect that allows some kind of targeting of the ogre, yes? Or they now know of the ogre, but not where it is, provided they can't target it? And this is only based on smell, they can't see or hear it, just smell it, so smell can provide position for pcs?