D&D 5E Is It Impossible To Benefit From 'One With Shadows'?

[Jester David]

Okay, Jester, but most rules needs tweaking when transposed between editions.

I just posted to allow everyone to compare.

Just reread the actual rules myself.
It's rather interesting as invisibility is functionally identical between the two rule systems. The key difference is stealthing wasn't an action, so there was never not a reason to make the check.

Stealth itself works pretty much the same. Or rather, to the average DM, stealth will play pretty much the same at the table. It's just explicit in 4e rather than implicit, and it takes an action rather than being something that happens automatically. If you have cover, you can hide, so long as you don't become unobscured.
The big differences seem to be the lack of penalties for moving your full speed before stealthing, the action economy, and the ability to (with DM approval) sneak up behind a distracted character. The rest is just codification/presentation.

 

[Arial Black]

Same thing with the warlock. It moves in shadow, becomes invisible, and you can still hear her breathing, shifting in place, etc. You haven't heard any movement or seen signs of the warlock's passage. There might be some blood dropping to the floor still.
So not hidden. No check is required to locate.

You've just quoted the problem!

If you have to be in dim light/darkness to use this ability, but the rules say you don't become hidden until you take the Hide action while in cover (like dim light/darkness), why would you choose this invocation? What does One With Shadows do for you? If there is darkness to hide in, you don't need invisibility!

This power actually prevents you from being hidden, because without the power you can move to dim light and take the Hide action, but with the power you cannot use an action to Hide after using the power because using an action would end the power, and if you use the Hide action first, what would you need invisibility for?

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. I tweeted a designer about it a long time ago and never heard back. (I might have tweeted on the wrong days where their limit gets reached so they lose tweets).

One could reasonably interpret the rules as saying that since hiding only requires an action in combat, you can use this ability to hide in full darkness outside of combat. I don't really like that, because I'm not a fan of a firm line between combat/not combat.

But hiding in dim light seems to require a more creative interpretation to work, since dim light doesn't generally allow for hiding.

Noticed what exactly?

Not trying to be argumentative, but several posters have found many ways to use this power, suggesting it isn't useless just because it can't be used to hide.

 

[CapnZapp]

You've just quoted the problem!

If you have to be in dim light/darkness to use this ability, but the rules say you don't become hidden until you take the Hide action while in cover (like dim light/darkness), why would you choose this invocation? What does One With Shadows do for you? If there is darkness to hide in, you don't need invisibility!

This power actually prevents you from being hidden, because without the power you can move to dim light and take the Hide action, but with the power you cannot use an action to Hide after using the power because using an action would end the power, and if you use the Hide action first, what would you need invisibility for?

Again you presume the power is there to help you with hiding.

I think the power is there to help you become invisible.

Y'all speak as if invisibility in itself is worthless; as if it's just something you do to hide easier...?

 

[Plaguescarred]

If you're in darkness you don't benefit much from One With Shadow since you're already unseen being heavily obscured (perhaps except from game elements working with such condition i.e the third eye) except you now cannot be seen in normal darkness from darkvision for exemple, but you'll benefit more from it by becoming heavily obscured in dim light if using it in the latter though.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Do you think they could be written down and applied for 5E?

Funnily, the D&D Next Stealth rules were more clear than 5E final version

Stealth
When a creature tries to hide, it relies on its
Dexterity to remain unnoticed. A creature can
attempt a Dexterity check to sneak around,
moving quietly and using cover and heavily
obscured areas to avoid detection.
There are two ways you can hide. If a creature
can’t possibly see you, you need only to avoid
making noise to avoid detection. If a creature
might see you, you need to keep behind cover or
stay in heavily obscured areas to remain hidden.
When you try to hide from one or more
creatures, your Dexterity check is contested by
the Wisdom check of any creature who might
notice you or the Intelligence check of a creature
that is actively searching for signs of your
presence. You make one Dexterity check for this
contest. Note your result, and use it as your
check for all contests until you are discovered or
stop hiding.


Conditions for Stealth
In order to avoid detection, you need some way
to remain out of sight—either something to hide
behind, or an area of poor visibility to locate
yourself in.
Stay out of sight. You can’t just stand in the
middle of an empty, lit room and hope to avoid
notice. Something must conceal you, perhaps a
large object, a piece of terrain, or an immobile
creature of a sufficient size, such as a slumbering
dragon. Regardless of what stands between you
and a viewer, it must cover at least half your
body for you to hide behind it.
An environmental phenomenon that obscures
you from view can also provide a means to hide.
A heavily obscured area typically contains
darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage. A
creature in a heavily obscured area is out of sight,
just as it if were hiding behind an obstruction,
and thus can try to hide. A lightly obscured area
typically contains dim light, patchy fog, or
moderate foliage. Some monsters and characters
have special abilities that enable them to try to
hide even in areas that are only lightly obscured.
Stay quiet. It’s assumed that you try to avoid
making noise while hiding, and your Dexterity
check also represents your ability to keep quiet.
If you make a noise, such as yelling a warning to
an ally or knocking over a vase, you give away
your position and are thus no longer hidden.


Benefits of Being Hidden
When your enemies don’t know where you are,
you can take advantage of the following benefits
You cannot be targeted by a creature from
which you are hidden if it uses an attack or a
spell effect that requires it to pick a specific
target. You can still be affected by area effects.
You have advantage on the attack roll when
you attack a creature from which you are hidden.
Making an attack usually reveals your position.

 

[Prism]

You've just quoted the problem!

If you have to be in dim light/darkness to use this ability, but the rules say you don't become hidden until you take the Hide action while in cover (like dim light/darkness), why would you choose this invocation? What does One With Shadows do for you? If there is darkness to hide in, you don't need invisibility!

The question is why do you want to be hidden? What benefit do you get over and above not being visible especially when you can't move, which is the main strength of being hidden.

As an example, I am playing an armoured dwarf warlock with 9 Dex and no stealth training. There is no realistic chance he can become hidden at all during combat. The monsters will always know where he is. However this invocation should he choose to take it allows him to become invisible, making him difficult to target, hard to hit and also allowing single attack with advantage should he choose to. Will I take the invocation? I'm not sure yet but its certainly an interesting defensive option

 

[Jester David]

You've just quoted the problem!

If you have to be in dim light/darkness to use this ability, but the rules say you don't become hidden until you take the Hide action while in cover (like dim light/darkness), why would you choose this invocation? What does One With Shadows do for you? If there is darkness to hide in, you don't need invisibility!

This power actually prevents you from being hidden, because without the power you can move to dim light and take the Hide action, but with the power you cannot use an action to Hide after using the power because using an action would end the power, and if you use the Hide action first, what would you need invisibility for?

Well, you don't necessarily get to hide in dim light (lightly obscured) unless you have a feat or race that lets you do so.
So it's a power that lets you turn being lightly obscured into being totally obscured. Which is doing something.

 

[Jester David]

Funnily, the D&D Next Stealth rules were more clear than 5E final version

They were more explicit and firm, but I don't think the actual usage in play is that different.

(There's some weirdness in that as well. The passage "If a creature can’t possibly see you" implies a failed Perception check is enough to grant stealth.)


Really, the reason the rules are looser comes down to giving the DM wiggle room. The harder the rules, the more the DM might have to outright contradict the rules.

Not every DM likes the idea of the rogue running across the middle of the room and ducking behind the half-pillar and becoming hidden. The idea that just because the orc doesn't see or hear the rogue, it's as disadvantages on attacks from that rogue as if it was completely unaware of its presence. Or even being able to stealth in the middle of a battle after attacking and while being closely observed.

Firmer rules also give less wiggle room for enabling some sneaky acts. The playtest rules (and 4e rules) both deny the ability to run from cover to cover. The rogue hiding behind the pillar waits for an opportune moment and then dashes out for the ruined wall, moving visible across exposed space but beginning and ending completely unseen. Yes, you can re-stealth, but you were observed.
And the 3e/4e/Playtest rules also deny the ability to sneak up behind someone. There's no way to step out of cover and silently walk up behind a guard and thump them. Because the second you're no longer obscured, you're automatically detected. Ditto quietly sneaking across the guard room, while the guards are playing cards and not watching.

 

[jayoungr]

edit: actually why not carry a blanket around and just throw it over you to become invisible. You still need someone to pit it away though. Maybe train your inp familiar to remove it.

I don't think you even have to do that. Removing the blanket would be your free "interaction with an object" that you get once per round, so you could take it off without using your action to do so.