D&D 5E Warlock, Pact of the Blade, Melee

[One_Shots]

You are setting yourself up for disappointment if you compare a caster who dabbles with melee with a full melee class.

That's an unfair way to look at this. Should it be as good as a fighter? No. But it still has to be objectively good and it just plain isn't when stacked up to other class options.

This is a problem with a lot of the sub-classes. There are very clear good and bad choices which in turn don't really make them choices other than to choose to have something that isn't as good as another thing. I think the best thing WotC could do isn't to introduce new classes and new sub-classes, but to go back and rebalance everything in a revision. At this point I wouldn't even care if they called it 5.5e, but I do think that it needs be done. When the core of a system is imbalanced, it cascades to everything else produced that is based on it.

 

[flametitan]

The only pact-blade build that works reasonably well is polearm master + great weapon master + devils sight + darkness (for advantage, and to help get more off-turn attacks). With armor from somewhere (dwarf, fighter 1, or cleric 1).

That depends on how we define "reasonably well." If merely catching up to Edritch Blast's damage is sufficient, then a couple levels of rogue (preferably swashbuckler for the extra ways to trigger SA) and dual wielding is about equal without hex, and about 2.4 DPR behind with hex (assuming a 60% chance of hitting, and that sneak attack conditions are available every round).

If by "reasonably well" we mean "outdo", then yeah, you might want those Polearm based shenanigans.

 

[neogod22]

A tome-lock or chain-lock can do all those things as well, with a useful pact boon, have 2 extra invocations, and more Cha so less creatures save against you fireball.
Tome-lock with booming blade and shillelagh if you want melee. Easy to trigger since you can hit and run with darkness, as enemies need to see you to make an OA.


The only pact-blade build that works reasonably well is polearm master + great weapon master + devils sight + darkness (for advantage, and to help get more off-turn attacks). With armor from somewhere (dwarf, fighter 1, or cleric 1).

You really don't need polearm master. It's not that great of a feat. Especially if you're suggesting using it with a staff as others have. The reason is, that features only works with polearms and staves. Heavy weapon master works with all weapons used with 2 hands. Tome and chain are better as ranged casters than melee. I like to look at warlock as a hybrid class. Tome = mage, chain = rogue, and blade = warrior. A tomelock with shillelagh may be able to hold off an attacker, but that's not what you want to go with trying to melee. As a cantrip, shillelagh does not scale at all. But go with what's fun for you.

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[neogod22]

Also, my blade wielding tomelock/rogue is pretty rad. She stabs real good. There is a smidge of homebrew involved, though

personalky I think the bladelock should just let you turn eldritch blast Into eldritch strike. Or, more elegantly, when you attack with your weapon, you may also cast a cantrip you know that deals damage. You replace one damage die of the spell with you weapon damage, and the spell targets the target of your weapon attack. Otherwise, the spell resolves as normal.

Not sure it it would be balanced, but it would get closer to what I think most people want in a hexblade style warlock Gish

How many levels in each class?

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[doctorbadwolf]

How many levels in each class?

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Right now she is 4 warlock (custom patron)/ 2 rogue. Just picked up second rogue level. She kicked ass with just one level of rogue, though. Now that I have 2 rogue levels, I might as well get a third, and then leave it here.
I don't tend to get super fine detailed with my build planning.

I almost wish the revised ranger had been out, I might have gone with ranger/warlock, and stalker conclave. Damn good assassin/skirmishing gish.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

I was going to ignore this thread (it was started in 2014!), but I have to make a comment here that I think 'you guys' are missing. Feats and Multiclassing are OPTIONAL.

Remove Feats and Multiclassing. Now go look at the classes and archtypes. It's obvious to me that a Fighter is simply better at melee than a Blade-Pact Warlock...because, y'know, he's a Fighter. Fighting is his 'job'. A PBW has other things he can bring to bare in combat.

If all you are interested in when creating a character is flat out DPR, then go play a computer RPG where nothing else really matters. WoW or Guild Wars 2 might fit the bill. But if you want to play a table-top RPG, there are a LOT more things of interest that you can do...and your characters "dpr" is, at best, only 1/3 of the game (less, I'd say, as Combat is 1/3rd, and combat is a lot more than DPR).

I had to get that off my chest. I'm not going to go into more detail, other than to say: The variability of DPR's between 'builds' is insignificant when looking at the group, and campaign, as a whole. (e.g., 4.5 dpr vs. 6 dpr is irrelevant). If character optimization is your "thing", then go for it. Enjoy. Knock yourself out. But don't blame the game if your "build" isn't as whiz-bang-awesome as you envisioned. IME, the 5e rules reward clever players and play much more than it rewards char-op.

^_^

Paul L. Ming (an old, cantankerous grognard, apparently... ).

 

[mellored]

As a cantrip, shillelagh does not scale at all. But go with what's fun for you.

Booming blade and green flameblade are what scale. Shillelagh just let's you boost your Cha, and have a good spell DC and strong Eldritch Blast. Possibly a shield, inspiring leader, and Warcaster if you want to defend.

Polearms are for bladelocks, who can get an extra 1 or 2 hits multiplied by great weapon master damage and advantage accuracy.

I like blade as an idea, it's just weak, like the current beastmaster. Give them some armor at the very least.

 

[One_Shots]

If all you are interested in when creating a character is flat out DPR, then go play a computer RPG where nothing else really matters.

Sorry for not playing the game the right way.

I'm not going to go into more detail, other than to say: The variability of DPR's between 'builds' is insignificant when looking at the group, and campaign, as a whole. (e.g., 4.5 dpr vs. 6 dpr is irrelevant).

It has a massive influence because the game is designed around combat and the design of the combat system promotes damage as the most effective means of succeeding in an encounter. Furthermore, there is a significant difference in power between sub-classes. This becomes exceedingly noticeable right at the very beginning of a character's progression and only ever gets worse throughout its career. Criticising people for wanting to lift a certain concept up to the levels of these premium builds really isn't very helpful or constructive, especially when all they want is for the playing field to be equal.

 

[neogod22]

Booming blade and green flameblade are what scale. Shillelagh just let's you boost your Cha, and have a good spell DC and strong Eldritch Blast. Possibly a shield, inspiring leader, and Warcaster if you want to defend.

Polearms are for bladelocks, who can get an extra 1 or 2 hits multiplied by great weapon master damage and advantage accuracy.

I like blade as an idea, it's just weak, like the current beastmaster. Give them some armor at the very least.

Dwarves start with medium armor proficiency, humans can take it as a feat. And gain an additional +1 to STR. When they get to lvl 4 they can take Heavily Armored and get +1 to STR. I thought you had this figured out. Sure those green flame blade and booming blade scale, but this email same cantrips can be used with a heavy weapon. Warlocks are not proficient with the shield, so why do you keep trying to use that as an option? You put on a shield, you can't cast spells, period.
Thirsting Blade and life drinker are blade only invocations, which makes pact of the blade much stronger for melee than your option. When my warlock gets to lvl 12 and gets life drinker, combining that with heavy weapon master, he will have +17 damage per hit on 2 attacks before any dice are rolled. Using a maul or great sword, on 2 hits (noncrit) I'm doing 38-58 damage on 2 attacks without adding in Hex, if a target dies, I get a third attack. Tell me again how this is weak.

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[neogod22]

And just to add perspective, 3 attacks with EB with agonizing blast do 18-45 damage on a warlock with a CHA of 20. And your shillelagh green flame blade attack will do 8-29 on the primary target.

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