D&D 5E Mage armor + bracers of defence

All play mastery encourages in my experience is relying exclusively on the one or two things you are optimized for to the exclusion of other methods of play. I'm not saying it's not fun, but it doesn't encourage PLAY, it encourages BUILDING, and doesn't encourage wide audiences of players who aren't into character optimization.
Spoken like a true RPGer - I'm not saying you are let me add - its just not a very power gamey thing to say. And what do you mean by "wide audiences of players who aren't into character optimization"? The big market games out there appeal to the wide audience - and that audience is...wait for it...the power gamer (World of Warcraft anyone?). 5e is a reactionary kneejerk that has sent the edition pendulum crashing back toward rpg extreme from the power gamey 4e. To counter any narrowing of audience (in playstyle), they simplified it to try to maintain or even grow audience.
 
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Nonsense.

Options for a more complex 5e would be great. That color coded advantage concept mentioned above would make for a cool addition

Yes. But it seems like there is a big resistance to any sort of change in that direction, which FEELS like this:

"yay! We won the edition wars!!! Now don't give an inch back to the other side - they screwed us in 4e! Make those power gamers suffer for it!"

Look, I have a group of gamers that have been playing D and D for between 10-40 years. We play D and D less and less now. Sure we could move to another edition, make all kinds of house rules, live w/o the content/support we don't get any more, etc. But the reality is that its hard to get a group to all be on exactly the same page on all that stuff. So its easier to just move on to other games. So we have started to play Ameritrash games more and more, along w/wargames. For me, it is particularly sad, since I was at the pinnacle of my D and D experience, with thousands of figures, miniature terrain, etc., building elaborate encounters and campaigns. A real dream come true for a 49 year old man w/memories of playing the old brown book d and d using only theatre of the mind.

I think many power gamers are going to go the same route, as they start beating the game a little too easily, and the DM has to scramble to find ways to challenge the players outside the system itself.
 
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5e is a reactionary kneejerk that has sent the edition pendulum crashing back toward rpg extreme from the power gamey 4e.
Possibly, but I was ready for a simplified D&D midway through 3.5, and looking at Pathfinder I really desperately wanted a simpler D&D. Especially in character creation. I've got that. But a tactics module of complex play rules to match 4e would be great.

. . . y'know, what I'd really like is 2e characters (with kits) in 4e combat. That might be my ideal D&D.
 

Possibly, but I was ready for a simplified D&D midway through 3.5, and looking at Pathfinder I really desperately wanted a simpler D&D. Especially in character creation. I've got that. But a tactics module of complex play rules to match 4e would be great.

. . . y'know, what I'd really like is 2e characters (with kits) in 4e combat. That might be my ideal D&D.

Good points. I really like your idea of a tactics module for 5e (I think you meant for 5e not 4e right?). With its own content. Let the rpgers have theirs, let the power gamers/tactician/miniature enthusiasts have ours. The games would share 90% of the rules and would be compatible. That seems like it could be a good business decision as well for WoC.

For me what sucks also is that 5e got so much right. They really did a good job imo of fixing the caster-non caster imbalances. "Concentration" is a great concept. The multi-class caster rules are fantastic - but so simple it makes me wonder how i never stumbled across that concept as a house rule. Much of the rest of 5e's simplification is great as well, but it just seems unevenly applied.

I am a student/officinado of games, and 5e just does not have a finished product smoothness to it. It's like there was a team of designers and each guy went his own way with different sections of rules. Perhaps there wasn't a strong leader/final editor that unified it all before it was complete, perhaps it was right-brain thinking rather than left brain. I don't know, I wasn't in the inner circle and didn't follow the whole D and D next evolution.
 
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But a tactics module of complex play rules to match 4e would be great.. . . y'know, what I'd really like is 2e characters (with kits) in 4e combat. That might be my ideal D&D.
Backgrounds, in 4e & 5e, both, are like the simpler Kits in 2e, and 4e Themes were comparable to the more substantial 2e Kits. 5e is entirely open to custom backgrounds, too. So all it would take is turning on all the optional 'tactical' rules, expanding some classes' tactical options, tweaking monster math to allow combats to last long enough for tactics (other than Alpha Strike & focus fire) to have an impact, and creating Backgrounds to mimic some of the more interesting 2e Kits.

And what do you mean by "wide audiences of players who aren't into character optimization"?
Character optimization is a system master activity, it's great fun once you know the system inside-out, a sort of depth-of-play issue (it can be good or bad, a system that can handle it gains depth of play from optimization, a less robust system loses it as most apparent options are discovered to be non-viable). Not everyone strives for, let alone achieves that level of system mastery. 5e doesn't go out of it's way to reward system mastery like 3.x intentionally did, nor out of its way to restrain it with mechanical balance the way 4e did, rather it sabotages it at the basic level by giving them no solid/definable system to master - 5e is fluid at the whim of the DM, you'll have to master him, not the system. ;)

To counter any narrowing of audience (in playstyle), they simplified it to try to maintain or even grow audience.
But, y'know, an ever-growing audience sure doesn't sound 'narrowed' to me. ;) Whether it's because of the game itself, or riding on the coat-tails of the rise in boardgame popularity, IDK. I'll take it.

5e is a reactionary kneejerk that has sent the edition pendulum crashing back toward rpg extreme from the power gamey 4e.
Yes. But it seems like there is a big resistance to any sort of change in that direction, which FEELS like this:

"yay! We won the edition wars!!! Now don't give an inch back to the other side - they screwed us in 4e! Make those power gamers suffer for it!"
OK, so there is some truth to this, I'm sure. 5e is trying to be conciliatory in the post-edition-war era, and consolation can often be mistake for capitulation. But, really, 4e was hardly the powergamers' dream that 3.x was, the game had already started pulling back from the peak of intentional rewards for system mastery, and, 5e is far less robustly balanced than 4e, so you can powergame like crazy with more significant results - the DM just has unlimited licence to pull the rug out from under you when you do. True powergaming in 5e is gaming the DM, not the system.

Let the rpgers have theirs, let the power gamers/tactician/miniature enthusiasts have ours.
First of all, we're all RPGers, whether we like telling cooperative stories, portraying/exploring/developing a character (capabilities and/or personality), or plumbing the depths of play possible in a complex game. It's RP /and/ G, incomplete without both.

For me what sucks also is that 5e got so much right. They really did a good job imo of fixing the caster-non caster imbalances.
Relative to 3.5, when those imbalances were at their absolute greatest (Tier 1 vs Tier 5), perhaps. Compared to the heavily-restricted, fragile magic-user of the early game, maybe not so much. If we recall how closely-balanced martial classes were with 'caster' classes of the corresponding role before Essentials...

The multi-class caster rules are fantastic - but so simple it makes me wonder how i never stumbled across that concept as a house rule.
I was so pleased with the return of 3.x/PF's elegant MCing system. I do seem to recall a number of such ideas being discussed on line back then, and I even used something of the sort in my 3.0 campaign.


I am a student/officinado of games, and 5e just does not have a finished product smoothness to it. It's like there was a team of designers and each guy went his own way with different sections of rules. Perhaps there wasn't a strong leader/final editor that unified it all before it was complete, perhaps it was right-brain thinking rather than left brain.
It seems like Mike Mearls was all but working alone, and was certainly the lead, so I doubt there was disunity of the sort you speculate about. Rather, my guess would be that what you're seeing is a consequence of 5e as a (The!) 'Big Tent' edition, trying to be inclusive towards fans of each and every prior edition...
 
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Backgrounds, in 4e & 5e, both, are like the simpler Kits in 2e, and 4e Themes were comparable to the more substantial 2e Kits. 5e is entirely open to custom backgrounds, too. So all it would take is turning on all the optional 'tactical' rules, expanding some classes' tactical options, tweaking monster math to allow combats to last long enough for tactics (other than Alpha Strike & focus fire) to have an impact, and creating Backgrounds to mimic some of the more interesting 2e Kits.
Aye. I did say earlier that I got the simpler (than 3e) character creation I wanted.
 

I'm not Horus, but I'm guessing he's thinking of two rules passages:

On one hand, the passage Multiple Items of the Same Kind you yourself talk about:

DMG said:
Use common sense to determine whether more than
one of a given kind of magic item can be worn.


On the other, the passage on Combining Magical Effects:

PHB said:
The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however.


There is, however, no rule in this edition that combines these two: a DM is well within her right to rule two identical magic items stack (provided you manage to use them at the same time).

I swear I read some clarification that effects from similar things, and not just spells, don't stack. But that may have been discussing overlapping Paladin auras that don't stack and not talking about a magical effect from something like rings and bracers.
 

I swear I read some clarification that effects from similar things, and not just spells, don't stack. But that may have been discussing overlapping Paladin auras that don't stack and not talking about a magical effect from something like rings and bracers.


Crawford also discusses this topic in the podcast this week: any bonus source having the same name does not stack, period. Specifically he used the example of two Cloaks of Protection providing no benefit, but the principle also applies to two Rings of Protection: same name, doesn't stack, end of story.
 

As long as sources of advantage won't stacks and that a single source of disadvantage will negate any amount of advantage I see no problem in the future. A single blur spell or simply dodging will negate any and all advantage sources. Just as the opposite is true; a single source of advantage will negate any number of sources of disadvantage.

I don't think WotC will change that. They will give classes some way to get advantages on their own. I see nothing wrong in that. The more you have a chance to attack with advantage, the more effective you become. Even if it is only to get rid of disadvantage it's still quite a good mechanic.
Agreed on all points.

Now, if you will, what are your thoughts on what I am talking about? :)
 

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