D&D 5E Selecting the Simplest Sorcerer Solution

[Eric V]

Good news! If you think its so great, you can have both! Just have your sorcerer take two levels of fighter. Just think of your nova potential when you can Quicken *AND* Action Surge in the same round!!!

You're trying to miss the point here, right?

Right.

 

[Wepwawet]

See, to improve the Sorcerer I wouldn't include any funny sorcery point cost for stuff, like +2 SP to do another metamagic you don't know, +3 if it's raining... Our improvements have to be as simple as the original one, or simpler. For instance spell slots and SP should be 1:1.

What if sorcerers could cast any spell off the sorcerer list for triple point cost? "Spells known" are spells that you can cast efficiently.

That would be a great new metamagic option. I don't like the idea of having players rummaging through the whole list of spells constantly but it could work

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That would be a great new metamagic option. I don't like the idea of having players rummaging through the whole list of spells constantly but it could work

I suspect the triple spell point/slot cost for spontaneous casting would do a lot to deter constant rummaging, even without an additional sorcery point cost on top of that. (You could either exclude cantrips from this rule, or just impose a minimum cost of 6 spell points or 3 first-level slots, even for a cantrip.)

But I'm actually interested in a deeper question: what would actually happen? Would anything break in the game? Would sorcerers suddenly become the dominant spellcasting archtype, displacing wizards, druids, clerics and bards? (Warlocks are their own thing.) I suspect not. I predict that you'd get a bunch of sorcerers casting pretty much the same spells they would have cast anyway without the special rule, and a bunch of players who are happier with the feel of their sorcerers, and maybe a few players trying out sorcerers who wouldn't be inclined to do so otherwise. Maybe once in a blue moon someone would spontaneously cast Fly or Dominate Person when it was appropriate to the situation, which would make all the players at the table happy.

I guess that's my real question: if there anyone here who would be unhappy if triple-cost spontaneous casting of any spell on the sorcerer list were introduced by their DM at the start of a new campaign? (What about spontaneous battlemaster maneuvers for double cost?)

 

[Rynic]

I know this thread is for people who think the Sorcerer is flawed, but I can't help but butt in. I agree that the Sorcerer appears to be less potent than the Wizard.

What's unfair is that this isn't true.

The Sorcerer requires thought and strategy, whereas the Wizard doesn't. You have to look through each Sorcerer spell and see whether each metamagic will be useful. The Wizard's powers are self-evident, with little ambiguity. The Sorcerer gives vague rules and hopes the player will discover some powerful combination. It requires some rules lawyering and a DM who knows the class.

This is my only problem. The Sorcerer isn't as simple as the others and so it's seen as unbalanced.

The lack of spells is necessary for separating them from other classes, especially wizards.
'Can you be comfortable with such a small spell-list?' Y/N?
Otherwise: Multiclass/Pick Another Class/Take a feat

It's not so much the lack of spells but the lack of variety. The Wizard has flavourful spells like Conjure Elemental, True Polymorph, Nystul's Aura, etc.

The Wish spell can compensate for a lot of the more potent spells, being able to metamagic them, makes them better (Divine word, extended to 60ft/ Subtle Mass Suggestion).

The Sorcerer's Font of Magic, the 1-20, is equal or even better than arcane recovery because you can design your own spell slot arrangement. You're not confined to the 4/3/3/3/3 slot arrangement for 1-5th level spells. You could go 37/0/0/0/0 - or 0/24/0/0/0 - or 0/0/14/0/0 - or 0/0/0/12/0 - or 0/0/0/0/10 with over 20 Sorcery points to spend on metamagic or lower slots.

If you're going to compare the Sorcerer to a superior Class, compare them to the Cleric, not the Wizard. Clerics have a bit of everything: D8 hit die, healing, radiant damage, martial ability, powerful smiting, Divine Intervention, A list of bonus spells, a powerful short rest ability capable of destroying undead.

 

[Corwin]

I hate to be pedantic...

Doubtful. Unfortunately.

I go on to say how a Fighters Action Surges don't compete for use with it's other class abilities(which somehow isn't answering your point).

Action Surge is also much more restricted in its available frequency of use. Unlike Metamagic. So each has advantages and disadvantages. But that's an inconvenient fact. Want another inconvenient fact: your example 6th-level sorcerer *ISN'T* restricted to using Quicken three times per day. Unlike the average fighter is with Action Surge (given a typical adventuring day as a baseline). He can, in fact, not only use Quicken more than three times in a day, he can also trigger a use of two of a competing Sorcery Point class feature. Does he lose a spell slot or two? Of course. Why shouldn't he? That's the give-and-take of managing your adventuring day. Feature not bug.

And how many of these class abilities is Metamagic competing with again? And how important are they? If Metamagic is the "coolest ability", why are you wasting sorcery points on another class feature? It's like saying Stunning Fist is the "coolest ability" of monks, so don't use ki for anything else. It's a trap!

I think it all comes right back around to expected median. And perceived design baselines. If one's perception is off, or if they want it to be somewhere else than where it is, its not the systems fault.

 

[Rynic]

I know this thread is for people who think the Sorcerer is flawed, but I can't help but butt in. I agree that the Sorcerer appears to be less potent than the Wizard.

What's unfair is that this isn't true.

The Sorcerer requires thought and strategy, whereas the Wizard doesn't. You have to look through each Sorcerer spell and see whether each metamagic will be useful. The Wizard's powers are self-evident, with little ambiguity. The Sorcerer gives vague rules and hopes the player will discover some powerful combination. It requires some rules lawyering and a DM who knows the class.

This is my only problem. The Sorcerer isn't as simple as the others and so it's seen as unbalanced.

The lack of spells is necessary for separating them from other classes, especially wizards.
'Can you be comfortable with such a small spell-list?' Y/N?
Otherwise: Multiclass/Pick Another Class/Take a feat

It's not so much the lack of spells but the lack of variety. The Wizard has flavourful spells like Conjure Elemental, True Polymorph, Nystul's Aura, etc.

The Wish spell can compensate for a lot of the more potent spells, being able to metamagic them, makes them better (Divine word, extended to 60ft/ Subtle Mass Suggestion).

The Sorcerer's Font of Magic, the 1-20, is equal or even better than arcane recovery because you can design your own spell slot arrangement. You're not confined to the 4/3/3/3/3 slot arrangement for 1-5th level spells. You could go 37/0/0/0/0 - or 0/24/0/0/0 - or 0/0/14/0/0 - or 0/0/0/12/0 - or 0/0/0/0/10 with over 20 Sorcery points to spend on metamagic or lower slots.

If you're going to compare the Sorcerer to a superior Class, compare them to the Cleric, not the Wizard. Clerics have a bit of everything: D8 hit die, healing, radiant damage, martial ability, powerful smiting, Divine Intervention, a list of bonus spells, a powerful short rest ability capable of destroying hordes of undead and some other useful power.

 

[Corwin]

You're trying to miss the point here, right?

Right.

Well said. Your counter argument is well thought out and nuanced. It leaves me with much to think about.

 

[Fritzo]

Action Surge is also much more restricted in its available frequency of use. Unlike Metamagic. So each has advantages and disadvantages. But that's an inconvenient fact. Want another inconvenient fact: your example 6th-level sorcerer *ISN'T* restricted to using Quicken three times per day. Unlike the average fighter is with Action Surge (given a typical adventuring day as a baseline). He can, in fact, not only use Quicken more than three times in a day, he can also trigger a use of two of a competing Sorcery Point class feature. Does he lose a spell slot or two? Of course. Why shouldn't he? That's the give-and-take of managing your adventuring day. Feature not bug.

And how many of these class abilities is Metamagic competing with again? And how important are they? If Metamagic is the "coolest ability", why are you wasting sorcery points on another class feature? It's like saying Stunning Fist is the "coolest ability" of monks, so don't use ki for anything else. It's a trap!

I think it all comes right back around to expected median. And perceived design baselines. If one's perception is off, or if they want it to be somewhere else than where it is, its not the systems fault.

I will agree with you that Metamagic and Quicken Spell in particular can be used more often than Action Surge, using flexible casting is useful in this way. But it drains more useful resources(slots) in an inefficient way. Especially for a sorcerer at 6th level who only has 4 1st level slots, 3 2nd level slots and 3 3rd level slots. It's a small resource pool of slots for as many encounters that are suggested in the DMG. I do believe however that sorcerers feel noticeably more fun at later levels. As I can actually afford to burn slots. 10th level and up is where the class feels right. I just wanted a few more points for those early levels.

Monks Stunning Strike is cheap as chips so can be used often at low levels, that and they do have some cool abilities such as the extra movement, free bonus action attack,and catching missiles which don't use their resource and make them feel good to play most of the time. But even the elemental subclass can feel unfun when a single spell will cost half their ki leaving them with less active abilities to use. Sorcerers ultimately feel a little restrained in this sense to me, options feel good at the end of the day but the best things are very expensive at those low levels.

Perhaps it's a flaw of resource based classes, They're good at high levels and weak at early levels. I guess you feel it's a problem with ones perception? Where i feel it's a design flaw of the resource class.

 

[Eric V]

Well said. Your counter argument is well thought out and nuanced. It leaves me with much to think about.

It's the only way I could see your answer as making any sort of sense. You don't seem to be arguing in good faith; Fritzo explained things better than me and you still don't seem to get it.

If you don't think Sorcerers need any solution, why are you in a thread exploring what solutions they need? The thread starts with the premise that a solution is needed. Did you not infer that?

 

[Corwin]

It's the only way I could see your answer as making any sort of sense.

Your lack of comprehension is my problem now? Not sure I have that kind of time to invest.

You don't seem to be arguing in good faith;

Please put the mirror down and direct your responses at me. Thank you.

Fritzo explained things better than me and you still don't seem to get it.

Not agreeing with someone, and not understanding them, are two entirely different things. Though I'm starting to get how you might have problems differentiating between the two.

If you don't think Sorcerers need any solution, why are you in a thread exploring what solutions they need? The thread starts with the premise that a solution is needed. Did you not infer that?

If you don't feel my contributions to this thread are of any value, why do you continue to respond to me?