D&D 5E Selecting the Simplest Sorcerer Solution


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Chaosmancer

Legend
And yet a similarly leveled fighter typically only has Action Surge three times a day as well, given the same encounter recommendations you just cited.

With the assumption of 2 short rests they get 3 action surges, 3 second winds, and the battlemaster gets 12 superiority dice.

Sorcerer still only gets 3 quickens, which is big spell followed by cantrip.

And that is if they use all their stuff before the short rest. Because the Battlemaster's Action surge, Second Wind and 4 dice refresh on the short rest, but the sorcerer does not.

So no short rests sorcerer looks better, multiple short rests battle master clearly has their stuff more often
 

Fritzo

First Post
And yet a similarly leveled fighter typically only has Action Surge three times a day as well, given the same encounter recommendations you just cited.

That is correct but Action Surge is not competing with other Fighter abilities, Metamagic does. I've already stated that once before, and it's a core point of my argument. It shouldn't be omitted when discussing if the Sorcerer has enough points.
 
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For a pure sorcerer, have you considered using the spell point variant? Allow a 1:1 conversion between spell points and sorcery points and shut down multiclassing (would make things very complicated). I believe that would work out really well.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
For a pure sorcerer, have you considered using the spell point variant? Allow a 1:1 conversion between spell points and sorcery points and shut down multiclassing (would make things very complicated). I believe that would work out really well.

That's a very interesting idea! Were I to run another campaign that had a player who was really serious about wanting a sorcerer due to both the style of play and the metamagic... I might think about re-doing the sorcerer to do in fact what you mention here-- use the spell point variant. And then like you say, use those spell points for *both* casting and metamagic. So rather than two different pools of points, you just have one pool of "sorcery points" that allows you to cast spells with or without as much metamagic as you please.

Obviously I'd have to take a look at the points and probably up them a bit in number if I'm expecting the players to use them for both spells and metamagic. But if I coupled this with giving the sorcerer all eight metamagic options from the very beginning... that bonus might be able to offset the smaller SP amount so I wouldn't have to give them more. The only two things that then remain then are the the number of Spells Known, and the spell list of the sorcerer itself. I know for me... I like the idea of curated spell lists for the different types of sorcerers (just like I like the idea of curated spell lists for the different Wizard Schools althought I havdn't bothered looking into that either), but can understand why they weren't made that way originally. Way too complicated. But to do a personal Sorcerer revamp, I think I probably *would* make personalized spell lists for the different sorcerous origins, if I did that I probably wouldn't up the Spells Known, I'd swap the class over to Spell Points, give the sorcerer all eight metamagics from the beginning at 3rd level, then let them use their spell point pool to fuel both their spells and the metamagic.

Doing that would certainly change the feel of the sorcerer I think, and might make it more intriguing and different.
 
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Yunru

Banned
Banned
My personal houserule re: Sorcery Points is to remove Metamagic's point cost entirely (and make empowered not able to be used with the others). I also restricted it to Sorcerer spells for balance reasons.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
For a pure sorcerer, have you considered using the spell point variant? Allow a 1:1 conversion between spell points and sorcery points and shut down multiclassing (would make things very complicated). I believe that would work out really well.
How's multiclassing complicated? Just start with the regular spell slots; by making the conversion 1:1 you've already implemented it, whilst minimising the multiclass confusion. The only difference between the systems is that at the start of the day the player technically has to convert their spell slots to Sorcery points.
 

How's multiclassing complicated? Just start with the regular spell slots; by making the conversion 1:1 you've already implemented it, whilst minimising the multiclass confusion. The only difference between the systems is that at the start of the day the player technically has to convert their spell slots to Sorcery points.

The difficulty would not be converting spell slots to points, that calculation is extremely simple. The complications that come in are balance concerns. A pure sorcerer is fairly underpowered in comparison to a wizard, but when multiclassed his primary weakness is ameliorated. Further, if a level in sorcerer gets you spell points in lieu of slots, most casting classes would probably want to get a level of sorcerer to utilize that system even if they aren't interested in actually being sorcerers. Spell points offer more power and versatility than spell slots, simply put.

Also, I believe you misunderstood my idea, Defcon. I wasn't suggesting the pool of spell points replace both slots and sorcery points, but just spell slots. So they wouldn't end up resource starved. They'd have their sorcery points in addition to their spell points, and the two would be interchangeable.
 

Full conversion to the spell point system for Sorcerors may actually exacerbate one of the current issues that people have with sorcerors in this thread though: lack of endurance.

If people are of the opinion that they should be able to throw out a meta-magic-powered spell slot every round in combat in addition to their utility casting out of combat, then allowing them to nova even faster by burning off high-level spells using points is going to leave them out of juice even sooner.
- Leading to even more complaints.

Where a less nova-capable class like wizard is expected to use low-end slots as well as cantrips regularly, a sorceror tuned to throw out metamagicked spells every round is either going to have a balance issue or an endurance issue in comparison.
 

Corwin

Explorer
Ha! There isn't a single sorcerer player who wouldn't trade 3 Quickens for 3 Action Surges! :D
Good news! If you think its so great, you can have both! Just have your sorcerer take two levels of fighter. Just think of your nova potential when you can Quicken *AND* Action Surge in the same round!!!
 

Corwin

Explorer
That is correct but Action Surge is not competing with other Fighter abilities, Metamagic does. I've already stated that once before, and it's a core point of my argument. It shouldn't be omitted when discussing if the Sorcerer has enough points.
That was not the point being addressed. It helps if you stick to one point at a time, rather than bounce around changing the location of the goalposts to suit an agenda.
 


I just want to say, Sword of Spirit, that I like your design principles.

+Cha Mod to spells known would be fine by me, as DM. I used to give out domain spells (draconic sorcerers off a list of fear- and rulership-themed spells; wild magic rolled randomly off the sorcerer table) until the revised Storm Sorcerer made it feel too nonstandard (no longer a fulcrum point tweak, you might say), so I'm very open to the idea of extra spells known.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
... or pay extra sorcery points to use the other six that aren't the ones I "know". Like, I have two primary metamagics as usual whose costs are normal, but then I can use any of the other metamagics as needed, but whose cost is 1 (or 2) points higher than normal since they aren't my primary ones. That way if I find myself in a situation where Careful Spell would be very useful, I'd be able to get my hands on it for that one fireball I cast at ground zero for example....

This really feels like it has potential. Neat idea that I must look at closer.
 

Corwin

Explorer
Has anyone else taken a moment to consider what the sorcerer's 20th-level capstone ability says about the individual value of a sorcery point? Just thinking out loud.
 

Wepwawet

Explorer
wild magic rolled randomly off the sorcerer table

That's a brilliant idea!!! 1 random spell per spell level you can cast to Wild Sorcerers.
(I wouldn't include extra spells for Dragon sorcerers, though, their abilities are quite good already)

I'll definitely include that in my games from now on. Best of it, spells that get little love will get some use, and players will certainly come up with creative uses for them.
 

That's a brilliant idea!!! 1 random spell per spell level you can cast to Wild Sorcerers.
(I wouldn't include extra spells for Dragon sorcerers, though, their abilities are quite good already)

I'll definitely include that in my games from now on. Best of it, spells that get little love will get some use, and players will certainly come up with creative uses for them.

I gave out two random spells per level (1-5) to match the UA Storm Sorcerer at the time but if you're not giving domain spells to any other subclasses I agree that one would be more appropriate.

Another interesting variation would be to re-roll those random spells periodically, either once per level or once per long rest.

And yes, little-used spells definitely do get some love. E.g. I was surprised to see how useful Jump can be for killing vampires clinging to the ceiling and Dodging while they regenerate.

Edit: what if sorcerers could cast any spell off the sorcerer list for triple point cost? "Spells known" are spells that you can cast efficiently.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
The difficulty would not be converting spell slots to points, that calculation is extremely simple. The complications that come in are balance concerns. A pure sorcerer is fairly underpowered in comparison to a wizard, but when multiclassed his primary weakness is ameliorated. Further, if a level in sorcerer gets you spell points in lieu of slots, most casting classes would probably want to get a level of sorcerer to utilize that system even if they aren't interested in actually being sorcerers. Spell points offer more power and versatility than spell slots, simply put.
You still require 2 levels for Metamagic, so that remains unchanged. Although you would have to put a Sorcerer level requirement on creating high-level slots like with the Spell Point system, but that's fine.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
You still require 2 levels for Metamagic, so that remains unchanged. Although you would have to put a Sorcerer level requirement on creating high-level slots like with the Spell Point system, but that's fine.

Or just make sorcerer levels not stack with other casters levels?
 

Fritzo

First Post
That was not the point being addressed. It helps if you stick to one point at a time, rather than bounce around changing the location of the goalposts to suit an agenda.

I hate to be pedantic but it was you corwin who failed to take on my point first, trying to avoid my argument. I said:

Oh no you misunderstand me, I do think its cool. But considering the designers have in their mind that a typical adventuring day takes 6 to 8 encounters. I think the idea of using your coolest ability 3 times over that many encounters is lacking. Especially when using that ability is competing with one other metamagic at that level, and a class ability.

and this is how you quote me:

Oh no you misunderstand me, I do think its cool. But considering the designers have in their mind that a typical adventuring day takes 6 to 8 encounters.
And yet a similarly leveled fighter typically only has Action Surge three times a day as well, given the same encounter recommendations you just cited.

I go on to say how a Fighters Action Surges don't compete for use with it's other class abilities(which somehow isn't answering your point). Also mate just go back to post #14, my first post in this thread. I'm basically explaining to Defcon why i feel sorcery points are too few. You won't believe what i say in that post, take a guess?
 

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