D&D 5E Why do so many DMs use the wrong rules for invisibility?

You keep saying it's broken. So how could it be better? You say you know the answer so why not share?
If you want improvements built on the current engine, I'm afraid I can't help you. I can't even fathom how the designers intended stealth to work. Interesting thought experiment: WotC releases a set of examples, a youtube video or something, that clearly and uneqivocally sets down the parameters for which the different stealth components work and how they interact with each other.

Yeah, I don't see that happening either. What does WotC stand to gain? By pleasing one third of the customer base, they will alienate another third, with the third third not even caring.

So my best advice is to look at your favorite not-5E game for a stealth system that works for you. This could be a previous D&D game; it could be some completely different game (like Runequest or WEG Star Wars).
 

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So my best advice is to look at your favorite not-5E game for a stealth system that works for you. This could be a previous D&D game; it could be some completely different game (like Runequest or WEG Star Wars).
...or just make up your own system or quasi-system.

Lan-"vanishing act"-efan
 

If you want improvements built on the current engine, I'm afraid I can't help you. I can't even fathom how the designers intended stealth to work. Interesting thought experiment: WotC releases a set of examples, a youtube video or something, that clearly and uneqivocally sets down the parameters for which the different stealth components work and how they interact with each other.

Yeah, I don't see that happening either. What does WotC stand to gain? By pleasing one third of the customer base, they will alienate another third, with the third third not even caring.

So my best advice is to look at your favorite not-5E game for a stealth system that works for you. This could be a previous D&D game; it could be some completely different game (like Runequest or WEG Star Wars).

I've not once had a problem at the table running stealth.

Came up five times in the last two game sessions I've run:

1) 8th level PCs sneaking up on an armed camp to scout and free a giant imprisoned in a large cave at the back of the camp. Ranger and Cleric want to sneak up edge of the front of the camp. The ranger casts pass without trace so they both get a +10. The rogue and dex fighter sneak to the back of the camp. Everyone makes stealth check vs passive perception of guards. The all succeeded. Next the rogue needed to move up to the giant to try to free it. But this required crossing some open ground. So stealth vs passive perception with adv (+5). She succeeded, freed the giant by picking the locks them moved away (another stealth check vs pp w/ advantage).

2) After freeing the giant (and telling him to remain still until a fight started) the rogue and fighter (being the high CHA characters in the party) walked into the camp and attempted to negotiate for the giant's release. When this failed, the ranger and cleric snuck up to the edge of the camp (vs pp w/ adv) and attacked, gaining surprise. The rogue and fighter I allowed to make a deception check vs insight to not give away the ambush. They succeeded so I gave them advantage on init but treated them as if they were surprised in regards to how initiative played out in the combat. The rogue made a ranged attack, moved behind a tent and hid. Next round she emerged to make a ranged attack (at adv from hiding) then hid again. She wanted to hide then move up to attack with advantage but I ruled her target was too aware of her and the ground was too open so she could not do that. So instead she chose to move up, attack and then dodge.

In another group w/ 12th level PCs in Castle Ravenloft:

3 ) A group of 7 Barovian witches were aware of the party entering their lair (the party had the witches' hag's eye). So 3 of them cast invisibility and hid. One witch cast alter self to look like a non-threatening woman who would distract the party and try to negotiate to get the eye back (and 3 others precast spells outside the room). The first PC into the room was looking for threats so she got an active perception check at disadvantage (effectively blinded). The other PC that entered the room just used passive perception w/ disadv. They noticed the threat (witches are bad at sneaking) and combat ensued from initiative which everyone rolled normally. The PCs could attack the invisible witches w/ disadv and the witches could attack with adv.

4) As the party was entering a tower via a bridge a battle started with animated weapons inside the tower. Vampire spawn were crawling up the tower under the bridge out of sight. I rolled stealth vs. passive perception of the two characters in back (standing on the bridge). The vampires got to attack w/ adv against the one PC that failed to notice them.

5) Once the vampires had swarmed onto the bridge the warlock flew away and the shadow monk used darkness then jumped off the bridge. The warlock had devil's sight so he could pummel the vampires with advantage. The paladin remained on the bridge in the darkness. He could attack the vampires normally and the vampires could attack him normally (both the vampires and the paladin were effectively blinded). He had used oath of enmity against one vampire prior to darkness being used so that vampire he could attack with adv. The wizard could not fireball the bridge without hitting the paladin because he could not see into the darkness to avoid hitting his ally. Eventually two vampires jumped down and killed the monk (killed, dead, won't be down for breakfast) ending the darkness spell. The paladin went down before he could revivify her but since he was not dead and now the wizard could see, the wizard cast polymorph on the paladin, turning him into a giant gorilla...epic gorilla vs vampire swarm hilarity ensued....

My players were satisfied with every ruling, each situation was exciting and memorable and involved a risk of failure and a possibility of success. The stealth rules (or at least my interpretation and application of them) performed as desired. IMO, the vagueness in the system is by design to allow a DM to make rulings on the fly that make sense for the current situation quickly without getting overly bogged down in looking up rules or trying to figure out how to apply them to complex and changing situations. "I hide" "Make a stealth check w/ adv/disadv vs perception w/ adv/disav" is all you really need to ever worry about. Sometimes the DM can rule that hiding is simply impossible (but this should be relatively rare, IMO).
 

I've not once had a problem at the table running stealth.

I've had the same experience. I may run things slightly different than you, but once I explain how I run it and why people are OK with it.

Some people are always going to complain no matter what because you can never satisfy everyone. That has been the case for every edition and every RPG I've ever played.

If there's some mythical perfect system satisfies everyone I've never seen it.
 

I've had the same experience. I may run things slightly different than you, but once I explain how I run it and why people are OK with it.

Some people are always going to complain no matter what because you can never satisfy everyone. That has been the case for every edition and every RPG I've ever played.

If there's some mythical perfect system satisfies everyone I've never seen it.

As long as the players don't feel like they are playing "DM-may-I" to do heroic and interesting things and as long as they feel like they had a fair chance to notice an ambush or a hidden NPC/monster before it ruined their day, all is good.

In my mind there are no formal stealth rules in 5e beyond: To become or remain hidden when the DM says doing so is possible you use stealth vs perception and becoming hidden in combat requires using the hide action. Like with all checks, the DM (or specific rules) determine adv/disadv. The only deviation I make from the guidelines is I have a character make their stealth check at the moment he or she might be noticed, not when they first hide...i.e. vampire spawn crawling up the tower under the bridge could not be noticed. But when they came out of hiding to attack the vampire stealth vs. PC passive perception was used to see if the vampire could attack a PC with advantage because the PCs were distracted by what was going on in the tower.
 

As long as the players don't feel like they are playing "DM-may-I" to do heroic and interesting things

That's how the D&D game works (except 4e combat, which is cool in its way) - players try to do stuff, and GM adjudicates. With a good GM it works great. With a bad GM it works badly, but I don't think playing with a bad GM is fun for long whatever the rules.
 

I run Stealth in what I consider the most sensible fashion for the cinematic moment. If someone can find an interesting cinematic parallel, I usually go with it. I wouldn't get too caught up in trying to run Stealth in a hard rule fashion. Stealth shouldn't be ruled as an absolute. It should be ruled according to what you can see in your mind's eye as possible. If the guard is turned in the other direction, then the person can sneak up without cover. If a player has pieces of cover to move to between each stealth check, let them try it. Don't get overly complicated with rule considerations that you ruin a cinematic moment important to a stealthy character.
 

Being invisible does not hide your location on the map, using the hide action does. You do not get advantage to stealth checks because your are invisible, you cause sight based perception checks to auto-fail. 4 creatures inside a darkness spell know each other's exact locations, there is no guessing, you still roll with disadvantage on attacks because you cant see them, but you can always hear them. I see this easy and simple rule bastardized so hard in games that I have to start asking my DM if they are going to hombrew the stealth rule before a campaign starts.
It's mainly because the sight/obscurity rules in 5e are borked and dont make sense. So folks make up their own more logical rules and use those.
 

The rules don't have a "Passive Stealth" for when you are hard to notice but haven't actively tried to hide your location. The rules seem to assume your location is immediately apparent even if you can't be seen.

This brings up an interesting nearby issue: What does a character automatically perceive? What do the automatically fail to perceive, and when do they need to make a roll?

Some assume that anything on the battle mat which is not hidden is automatically perceived. But not everyone.

I think this more basic question needs to be answered before answering the invisibility question.

Thx!
TomB
 

This brings up an interesting nearby issue: What does a character automatically perceive? What do the automatically fail to perceive, and when do they need to make a roll?

Some assume that anything on the battle mat which is not hidden is automatically perceived. But not everyone.

I think this more basic question needs to be answered before answering the invisibility question.

Thx!
TomB

I think it's basically up to DM fiat. If the DM thinks something shouldn't be immediately apparent, assign a Perception DC to it. It may be a creature, a secret door, a trap, or a magical rune.
 

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