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D&D 5E 5e Warlord Demand Poll

How much demand is there for a dedicated warlord class??

  • I am a player/DM of 5e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 61 26.3%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 2 0.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with WotC's current offerings for a warlord-esque class

    Votes: 67 28.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with the current 3rd party offerings for a warlord class

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 94 40.5%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 2 0.9%

  • Poll closed .
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Then who can you make new classes for?
Ideally... almost no one. 2e to 4e and Pathfinder have shown that you can make a LOT of classes for the game if you let yourself. Imagination is infinite and all. But new classes are the easiest way of bloating the game, and creating imbalance.

New classes should be rare as eff.

Where is the line? And is that line being drawn fairly? And how close do you think the Warlord is to that line? (Either in general or in relation to the summoner and jester class you mentioned.)
My personal opinion is that the game already has too many classes. But some get grandfathered in because they've been in the game for 3+ editions (barbarian, ranger, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, bard, etc).

There's room for the mystic/psion (again, 3+ editions...) but honestly even the artificer is a bit of a stretch. The artificer resonated with people in 3e almost as much as the warlock. WotC initially tried to make that a subclass too. The first attempt was a wizard archetype. But that didn't go over well.

So, I think the artificer is "the line". A class has to be that popular and just not work as a subclass to be considered as a full class. Is the warlord as popular as the artificer? *shrug* No idea. I think WotC would, since they have done the surveys and know exactly what classes were played regularly via the Online Tools.

[MENTION=21556]Jester[/MENTION] Canuck - take a look at the poll results. Just a hair over TWO PERCENT of respondents are satisfied with the 3pp efforts. Seriously? You're going to die on the hill of "be satisfied with 3pp products"?
How many have actually looked at the 3PP efforts? How many people have given those products a chance? Dismissed them outright because they didn't have an official stamp of approval? (How many have you looked at, for example?)
(Oh, and at least half the warlord fans out there are apparently happy with WotC's efforts and the options already in the game. Hadn't noticed that...)

But, of course, the 2% is of the 455 people who replied. Of the 1,500 who regularly check out the ENWorld forum (likely more as the number online can tick as high as 2000, and there's likely some rotation). The other 1,000+ couldn't even be interested enough in the warlord poll to pop in and vote "I don't care."
 

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Sacrosanct

Legend
(Oh, and at least half the warlord fans out there are apparently happy with WotC's efforts and the options already in the game. Hadn't noticed that...)

Yeah, if someone says they are happy with WoTC, why would they choose the other option (3PP)? It's pretty flawed to assume only 2% of people are happy with 3PP because I'm sure many people happy with 3PP are also happy with WoTC. If I recall, the poll isn't multiple options, but I could be misremembering. You'd have to add those together to get the people that are generally happy with options available currently (whether from WoTC or 3PP).
 

Aldarc

Legend
A wizard does not do everything an EK can do. I'm not even talking about the fighter core features, I'm talking about the subclass itself. Based on the feedback what people want of a Warlord, the features of the PDK are fundamental to the warlord class (plus a bunch of other stuff). Therefore, if there were to be a warlord class (and subsequent subclasses), it would not only completely replicate what the PDK subclass can do in every way, but probably do it better.
The primary feature of the EK subclass is that it's a Fighter who can cast wizard spells. I said that the EK is built around the Fighter chassis, built on the assumption that it will not do thing as a Wizard but as a Fighter. The same would be true for a Warlord vs. the PDK. The PDK will still be a Fighter who operates as a Fighter, whose PDK abilities presume an interrelation between the subclass mechanics and the core chassis mechanics. It's not as if the Valor Bard has made the Eldritch Knight obsolete. Multiple gishes exist in-game that operate around the principle of "I cast and attack at the same time!"

See the difference? There is no class in the game right now that does exactly what another subclass does.
:shrug: Then alter the abilities of the Warlord so they don't do what the PDK does in the same manner. The Warlord would not be built on the Fighter chassis, but on its own, with its own mechanics and core assumptions of features. I'm not sure why you are making such a federal case out of something with such an obvious solution.

Ideally... almost no one. 2e to 4e and Pathfinder have shown that you can make a LOT of classes for the game if you let yourself. Imagination is infinite and all. But new classes are the easiest way of bloating the game, and creating imbalance.

New classes should be rare as eff.
Ideally yes, because the system would be so robust that no new classes or even subclasses would be necessary. Unfortunately, I don't think that we are working with an ideal system. And a disdain for new classes does not mean that new classes aren't necessary, needed, or wanted. It's just a preference for avoiding addition.

My personal opinion is that the game already has too many classes. But some get grandfathered in because they've been in the game for 3+ editions (barbarian, ranger, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, bard, etc).
The sorcerer and warlock were both introduced in 3rd edition, so they were only a part of two editions. The sorcerer was part of PHB1 in 3E but was in PHB2 in 4E. The warlock was part of PHB1 in 4E, but it definitely was not in 3E. So we are only talking two editions. Furthermore the Warlord was in the 4E PHB1 and its spiritual predecessors were in the Miniatures Handbook (the Marshall) and the Bo9S. But the Warlord was in a PHB1 as its own class and not as a subclass or alternate class.

There's room for the mystic/psion (again, 3+ editions...) but honestly even the artificer is a bit of a stretch. The artificer resonated with people in 3e almost as much as the warlock. WotC initially tried to make that a subclass too. The first attempt was a wizard archetype. But that didn't go over well.

So, I think the artificer is "the line". A class has to be that popular and just not work as a subclass to be considered as a full class. Is the warlord as popular as the artificer? *shrug* No idea. I think WotC would, since they have done the surveys and know exactly what classes were played regularly via the Online Tools.
Thanks. I was curious where the metric was for you, and I have a much better idea now, particularly with your general aversion to adding new classes. But this gives us something more palpable to discuss than simply an undrawn line. But at least for you, the line vaguely appears at a certain, but it's a question of where the warlord exists in relation to it. Again, much appreciated for the response.

Yeah, if someone says they are happy with WoTC, why would they choose the other option (3PP)? It's pretty flawed to assume only 2% of people are happy with 3PP because I'm sure many people happy with 3PP are also happy with WoTC. If I recall, the poll isn't multiple options, but I could be misremembering. You'd have to add those together to get the people that are generally happy with options available currently (whether from WoTC or 3PP).
[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], Sacrosanct's criticism of your assertion is what I would echo as well, though I agree with your point regarding the desire for an "official" WotC vs. 3pp/homebrew.
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I do think there is a much greater chance of getting a warlord subclass of an existing base class, than there is of getting a new base class. I know the desire for most who like the warlord is a new base class. I just think the odds of getting that are significantly lower than selling the concept of a subclass.
 

Ideally yes, because the system would be so robust that no new classes or even subclasses would be necessary. Unfortunately, I don't think that we are working with an ideal system. And a disdain for new classes does not mean that new classes aren't necessary, needed, or wanted. It's just a preference for avoiding addition.
I do agree. In a perfect, ideal world the classes and systems would be so flexible and adaptive that we wouldn't need as many new classes. And, in that perfect world, people would always get the new options they wanted, there'd be enough pages in books to satisfy everyone, and all the new options would be perfectly balance.

But the world isn't perfect.

New options aren't always balanced. Often far from it. And introducing new classes - which impact the entire game at all levels and interact with every other feature in the game - can be greatly imbalancing.
And there are a finite number of pages in books. Content you include comes at the expense of other content. Just looking at what's already been done, WotC chose to publish the Purple Dragon Knight subclass rather than something else. To give the fighter a fourth subclass rather than the bard or the druid a third. And a full class will come at the expense of a half-dozen subclasses.


New classes bloat the game more than any other aspect of the system. Because they can impact every round of every encounter of an entire campaign. They define characters.

They're a big part of how characters introduce themselves. When new players sit down at the table, they identify the other characters primarily via class. It defines the character and sets expectations. The more classes deviate from the expected fantasy tropes (or classes common in other RPGs or MMOs) the harder it is for those players to "get" the other players. It creates narrative dissonance. Gamers know what fighter/warriors are, and they know mages/wizards/sorcerers. But the more classes and adjectives you add the harder it is to picture that character. If someone says they're a vishkanya overwhelming soul kineticist* what does that mean? What do they look like? What do you expect at the table?
(* This being a speculative character I planned to 5th level for Pathfinder Society before I stopped playing in that program)

Classes also define the world. The PHB introduces monks, so monasticism and ki are assumed in every D&D world, and DMs have to find a way to justify kung-fu.
Every time you add a new class the Dungeon Master has to retroactively find a place for that class in the world. Suddenly this whole new profession that didn't previously exist now does. Warlords are easy in this respect, but other classes are less so. How would shamans fit? Mystics? Shapeshifters? Invokers? Dragonfire adepts?

So, yes, as a personal rule I push back against adding any new classes to the game.


I'm not someone arguing from the position that the warlord sucks. I think the concept of the class is a little weak for an entire class and thematically it would have been best as a fighter subclass, but agree that as is, the fighter is a poor fit. But I'd argue the same thing for the concept of the shaman, saying it should be a druid or cleric build (which, as written, are probably also a poor fit).
If this were 3e or 4e or Pathfinder I wouldn't even have bothered reading this thread. Because there was so much content, why not have a warlord? Have a warlord. And a shaman, assassin, ninja, shapeshifter, and dragonfire adept. Don't like something? Wait a month, they'll be more!
But now… we're getting class content once every two years. And even odds whatever the fall book is, it'll have <100 pages of mechanics. Likely closer to 50. Devoting six pages (or more) to a class whose concept is thematically weak *and* already in the game is a heck of a lot.
I'd have similar reactions to a magus/duskblade/swordmage class or a spell thief or an avenger class being added. We already have something in the game. It's not perfect but it does the job well enough. Give us six new subclasses that add something entirely new that isn't in the game at all.

The sorcerer and warlock were both introduced in 3rd edition, so they were only a part of two editions. The sorcerer was part of PHB1 in 3E but was in PHB2 in 4E. The warlock was part of PHB1 in 4E, but it definitely was not in 3E. So we are only talking two editions.
And they tried to remove both the sorcerer and warlock for 5e. They tried to fold them into the wizard and make an overarching mage class, and I was all for that change. We don't need a separate class for each origin story of how a spellcaster gets magic. The difference between a sorcerer, warlock, and wizard is basically the character's origin story. It's their background. It's mutant vs radioactive accident. It doesn't matter to the party.

But the playtest version they release only had the wizard and they didn't show how it would work with the sorcerer (and it had some non-generic class features), so I think many people rejected it too early.

And prior to that they tried to differentiate the two by making the sorcerer the gish class. Which was also rejected...

Furthermore the Warlord was in the 4E PHB1 and its spiritual predecessors were in the Miniatures Handbook (the Marshall) and the Bo9S. But the Warlord was in a PHB1 as its own class and not as a subclass or alternate class.
If we're counting the marshall as the warlord we can also count the spirit shaman from 3e which became the shaman in 4e. Or the ardent in 3e and 4e, and the cavalier from 1e, 2e (a kit), 3e (as the knight), and a 4e "subclass".
To say nothing of the assassin from 1e, 3e, and 4e. I could go on.
There's lots of classes with a legacy.

The difference is, of course, the warlord was published in PHB1. That's different… but still an arbitrary distinction. It's picking something that distinguishes the warlord and then inflating that in importance to justify the class.
One could just as easily pick the assassin and cavalier as they were created by Gygax. Or the ardent because it comes first alphabetically. Or the ninja because they're the most popular. Or the shaman because they're in World of Warcraft. Or the summoner because they're super popular in Pathfinder and would appeal to Pokemon fans.

You can find a reason to justify adding any class.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Then who can you make new classes for? Where is the line?
Without collecting dependable data, I think Mearls hit on a fair line, at least to start, back in the playtest: classes in a past-edition PH1.

Presumably, follow that with classes from other PHs, (and close equivalents like the 1e UA - Cavalier & Accrobat would be the relatively obscure candidates, there).

And how close do you think the Warlord is to that line?
It probably should have been in line ahead of psionics (never an actual class in a PH1, just an odd, optional random special ability in a 1e PH appendix), and definitely ahead of the Artificer (that has only appeared in Eberron supplements, IIRC).

...

Then, of course, there's 'popularity.' Obviously, the Warlord has some ardent(npi) support among serious fans. WotC may or may not have collected good data, but I don't recall a peep about the Warlord, nor about any 4e-era martial mechanics, on any of the Next Playtest surveys, and I took all of 'em.

The one time they put out an informal L&L poll ranking those PH1 classes, the Warlord came in low, but ahead of several others that made it into the 5e PH.

And is that line being drawn fairly?
Drawn, yes. Applied, very obviously not.

The Warlord falls on the wrong side of D&D's perennial Martial|Magic double-standard. The Artificer and Mystic are on the right side of it and in development.

And then there's always the obvious but uncomfortable to acknowledge elephant-in-the-room fear that carrying through with the playtests' ideal of inclusion for /all/ fans, including even those of 4e, risks re-igniting the edition war, as there are those who have no room for tolerance of other plays styles in their vision of D&D.

Ultimately, when some your customers tend towards a prejudice, it's easier to cater to the prejudice than to challenge it. It's not always better, in the long run (because, if you do overcome that prejudice, you might ultimately gain a large audience - though there's no guarantee), but it's generally safer in the short run (because if the prejudice is strong enough, your existing customers will turn against you, actively, whether that's criminally breaking shop windows & scrawling graffiti or perfectly-legal edition warring & book burning).

My hope is that, as 5e has already established it's traditional-D&D bona fides, and as it continues to do well and re-establish itself without much sign of anti-5e edition warring, it will become more practical to carry through on more of that aspirational goal of inclusiveness.

I do think there is a much greater chance of getting a warlord subclass of an existing base class, than there is of getting a new base class.
You are correct: the chance is 100%, since we already saw the PDK drop the name 'warlord' in SCAG, nor is the Mastermind in the same supplement entirely dissimilar.

Obviously, as the poll illustrates, there are still those who want the full class.


I just think the odds of getting that are significantly lower than selling the concept of a subclass.
Nod. That was said about psionics, too. A GOO Warlock could be re-skinned. A sorcerer sub-class would be easier to create than a full class. But, fans of psionics are getting the Mystic, in spite of the huge design challenge of trying to accommodate multiple very different subsystems and classes from past editions.
 

Corwin

Explorer
Without collecting dependable data, I think Mearls hit on a fair line, at least to start, back in the playtest: classes in a past-edition PH1.

Presumably, follow that with classes from other PHs, (and close equivalents like the 1e UA - Cavalier & Accrobat would be the relatively obscure candidates, there).

It probably should have been in line ahead of psionics (never an actual class in a PH1, just an odd, optional random special ability in a 1e PH appendix), and definitely ahead of the Artificer (that has only appeared in Eberron supplements, IIRC).
If you are going to represent what the devs have, or have not, done, it might be in your best interest to take into consideration their perspective on the matter. They feel they've *already* covered the warlord. On a multitude of fronts. Both in various ways throughout the 5e PHB, as well as with a subclass released in a supplement specifically for those who felt something was still missing. To speak as if the devs are dropping the "ball" because they leapt past warlord to handle psionics and an artificer, is disingenuous. It ignores their opinion, that the "ball" was already sufficiently handled. I get that you do not consider their opinion to hold any weight in this matter. But you are a niche minority on that front as well, IMO.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
You are correct: the chance is 100%, since we already saw the PDK drop the name 'warlord' in SCAG, nor is the Mastermind in the same supplement entirely dissimilar.

Obviously, as the poll illustrates, there are still those who want the full class.


Nod. That was said about psionics, too. A GOO Warlock could be re-skinned. A sorcerer sub-class would be easier to create than a full class. But, fans of psionics are getting the Mystic, in spite of the huge design challenge of trying to accommodate multiple very different subsystems and classes from past editions.

I am just wondering if there is a way to do this as a subclass which is, essentially, a class.

Like making it a sub-class of Barbarian or Paladin that lets you swap Rages or Spells for Combat Superiority points. Something that takes an existing class with built-in resources, and changing those resources into the resources you would use for a Warlord.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I am just wondering if there is a way to do this as a subclass which is, essentially, a class.
I certainly think that could be done, in theory. It'd be a radical departure from existing sub-class designs. Whether it's worth setting that precedent to just technically avoid having to admit it's a new class, I'm not so sure.

They feel they've *already* covered the warlord. On a multitude of fronts.
Do we really want to go over that again? With a closed poll at the top of the page that shows 30% dissatisfaction with that coverage?

But you are a niche minority on that front as well, IMO.
The minority that finds what they've done so far to be adequate is apparently a bit smaller still.

But, seriously, everything post-PH is going to be serving niche interests. The big stuff was done. The Majority should be happy. Many a largish plurality should at least not feel badly under-served.
 
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FitzTheRuke

Legend
If you are going to represent what the devs have, or have not, done, it might be in your best interest to take into consideration their perspective on the matter. They feel they've *already* covered the warlord. On a multitude of fronts. Both in various ways throughout the 5e PHB, as well as with a subclass released in a supplement specifically for those who felt something was still missing. To speak as if the devs are dropping the "ball" because they leapt past warlord to handle psionics and an artificer, is disingenuous. It ignores their opinion, that the "ball" was already sufficiently handled. I get that you do not consider their opinion to hold any weight in this matter. But you are a niche minority on that front as well, IMO.

Not saying you are wrong, because I really have no idea, but how is it that you know how the developers feel?

Sent from my LG-D852 using EN World mobile app
 

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