D&D 5E Anyone else think the Bard concept is just silly?

[doctorbadwolf]

In D&D that is usually the case especially in a random encounter.
So just imagine that in this picture a lion is mauling the dwarf cleric while the human decapitates a leopard with his greatsword while Orpheus plays his harp.

Man, it's been at least a decade since I've seen a random encounter at an actual DnD table.

 

[cbwjm]

I actually quite like the idea of a bard character, it can be a cheesy minstrel character but it isn't really required. The original bard certainly didn't seem that way since it was a fighter/thief/bard it really did seem more like the jack of all trades character.

Even 2e could easily be a fun character to play as a non-prancing about minstrel (although the image in the revised players handbook makes it look a lot like the prancing minstrel than anything else). I can't really recall much of the 3e or 4e bard, I know that they definitely had a theme of musical abilities, I think a bard could do so many bard songs a day in 3e. But, some cool ideas that I really like for the 5e bard (or any edition bard, really) are:

Dwarf Chanter. A bard who taps into magic through his ritual chanting, fighting in the frontlines with his allies. I'd make him a Skald, probably has training in using drums, and is trained in performance. The dwarf chanter could also be a lore-keeper for his people with a background as a sage.

Elven Spellsinger. These have been around in the Forgotten Realms for a while now, I can't really say much about the class (and I think it may have actually been a class 2e), but from memory their spellsongs were powerful magic and I can imagine them as being on the backline, singing their spells into existence. I'd make her a Lore Bard, skilled in performance. No catchy songs or dirty limericks, her songs use words of power that call upon ancient magic.

Investigator. One of my ideas for a lore bard is to create an investigator similar to sherlock holmes with high intelligence and skilled in investigation, perception, and insight. It still has training in musical instruments due to the nature of the class, but they aren't a major component of the character. Inspiration would be oratory rather than musical.

These are the first three that come to mind, so while you can certainly play a silly bard, and there is nothing wrong with that, I'd even enjoy playing one, there are plenty of other options out there to customise your bard character.

 

[DaedalusX51]

I would have made it a sorc archetype, personally. Maybe lore Bard in wizard and "power of song" in sorc. Maybe a rogue archetype as well for a scoundrely type. Then a barbarian Bard for the skald. Delete the class and let it live through it's archetypes, call it a day.

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While this might ruffle some feathers, I've recently come to think that the Bard should be a Warlock subclass, or at least have the same power source.

Most Bard representations are entertainers with Fey-like enchantment or illusion magic. but there has never been a concrete reason why they have magical power. A deal with an otherworldly entity makes the most sense. Plus the classic representation of the Deal with the Devil in "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" would just be an awesome example of an infernal pact Bard.

 

[Hussar]

I fondly remember my 2e Meistersinger bard. The 2e kits really were fantastic for bard flavor. Imagine the Pied Piper, but played by a player. Lots of fun.

 

[Brandegoris]

Name one feature that requires or even mentions singing. Bonus points if it's a combat ability. No points for spells.

Methinks the problem with the flavour of the bard id one you're adding.

It doesn't specifically have to be singing. my point is that anything other than swinging your weapon in a combat situation or casting a spell from a distance requires ( I believe) some type of "performance" on the part of the bard. It may be strumming a lute, Signing, dancing, poetry etc, but at the end of the day it seems hard to visualize some one doing that while people fight for their lives. That's the only thing I am saying here. The concept seems strange to me.
I am actually unsure if the 5dition bard MUST perform while he does this or not, but if he Doesn't need to perform then he is the same as a wizard and Sorcerer I suppose....and so I begin to wonder why we needed to add a class when it already existed?

 

[Brandegoris]

Fluff-wise, the fact that the 5e Bard page shows us a smirking elf with a lute/guitar. And the constant references to music, being an entertainer, and the approach that their knowledge comes mostly in the form of rumors and personally embellished tales. It does a very good job of contrasting the Bard as a genial, charming, sly spinner of yarns with other more knowledge based classes like the Wizard and Warlock. Even the class name Bard, despite its original origins is -in modern contexts- more commonly encountered as a synonym for a poet/minstrel/musician/entertainer.

Mechanics-wise despite the change of Bardic Song to Bardic Inspiration (which still describes it as singing/music), we still get Song of Rest, and a spell list that focuses on illusions, charms, trickery but not much in terms of knowledge/divination etc. And the automatic proficiency with musical instruments which are also your spellcasting focus. You have to make a very specific effort to not fall into the stereotypical musical trickster shtick. The Skald comes across as more of a subversion than anything.

And that's just 5e D&D. Not touching upon art/class abilities/options in other editions or in regards to the many D&D imitators I alluded to.

I would compare the D&D Bard class and description to those of classes like the Noble from Star Wars or the Sage/Keeper from Fantasycraft. They fill a similar role in the game to the D&D Bard and even have very similar mechanics, but their descriptions don't really bring to mind a more flamboyant wandering entertainer- even though they could very easily be used to make one and such characters are cited as examples.

So for those of you that didn't understand my overall problem I think THIS gentleman maybe described it pretty spot on. I can see from some of the things said on here that there are some capable people that can pull of a cooler bard but as pointed out above you have to actually make a VERY conscious effort to do so because as described in the 5Edition book the Bard is everything I dislike.
My players actually have the same problem I suppose. none of us play the Bard because as described we don't like the flavor, and instead of completely reconstructing it to make it what we want we just pick a different class that is a better fit( since bards just copy several different classes in 90% of their abilities).
I concede that I have heard some good stuff in this thread though so I may be convinced to not dislike the bard as much as I previously had.

 

[Capn Charlie]

While this might ruffle some feathers, I've recently come to think that the Bard should be a Warlock subclass, or at least have the same power source.

Most Bard representations are entertainers with Fey-like enchantment or illusion magic. but there has never been a concrete reason why they have magical power. A deal with an otherworldly entity makes the most sense. Plus the classic representation of the Deal with the Devil in "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" would just be an awesome example of an infernal pact Bard.

A fun pact for a bardlock would be with the song of creation that still echoes through reality. Mix in name magic and Word spells like healing word, sleep power word etc.

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[Brandegoris]

Orpheus plays his harp, and fixes the lion in his flashing gaze, and speaks in a voice like thunder. And at the sound of his words, the savage creature recoils from him in fear and physical pain. Blood springs from the lion's eyes, first in drops but then in rivers, as Orpheus continues to recite barbed words, cruel words, words to flay the body and the mind. At last, the beast lies dead and the poet stands victorious, never having lifted a weapon but armed with the most beautiful and terrible of all magic. As silence descends over the battlefield, the other warriors, blood-spattered and weary, look with awe upon what their youthful companion has wrought.

No, you're right, that's totally silly -- a ridiculous distraction from the serious business of murderhoboing for fun and profit.

yeah until Orpheous fails the roll the Animals Maul him and simultaneously what...? He keeps spouting Poetry? Once again you are describing a PERFECT situation which is fine when it works. When it doesn't it is EXACTLY the SILLY that I Describe having a problem with.

 

[Derren]

No, you're right, that's totally silly -- a ridiculous distraction from the serious business of murderhoboing for fun and profit.

Yes it is totally silly as again you create a special scene with the bard as the only protagonist. Yet that is not how D&D plays out. The bard is just one of the party and while he sings the fighter fights, the rogues backstabs and the wizard casts fireball.

 

[Garthanos]

I fondly remember my 2e Meistersinger bard. The 2e kits really were fantastic for bard flavor. Imagine the Pied Piper, but played by a player. Lots of fun.

Played in a pure homebrew game a good while back where I played a fellow name Hamlin , and there was always a price to magic, the trick was if he could find the right price he was very very versatile in what he could accomplish.

I raised the dead but the one who did the accidental killing had to become the guardian.

I got whiplashing backlash effects if the one who agreed to the price reneged.