D&D 5E Should Warlock Patrons be able to revoke a Warlock's powers if the Patron is displeased?

[Caliban]

But if it's a pact, wouldn't it be MUTUALLY binding? Why would only the PATRON have to live up to his side of the deal?!? Of course, maybe what the Warlock concedes to his Patron isn't obedience, but his SOUL (especially appropriate for a Fiend Pact) or something else... In any case, I can't see a Patron granting a Warlock powers for free. Maybe the Warlock did the Patron a favor at some point (i.e. saved his Patron's bacon from an adversary), and the Warlock powers are returning the favor?

By default, whatever pact the warlock makes with their patron doesn't involve their continued obedience or loyalty.

It's a business transaction, and the Patron has already received whatever payment they are owed in return for granting the warlock their powers. Or the payment won't be due until after the player has stopped playing the warlock.

That is because the warlocks are mechanically balanced against the other spellcasting classes and don't have any extra penalties that the other classes don't have.

Now, you and the player can work out RP reasons for this, or even write up a specific contract that places requirements and restrictions on the warlock.

In my home game, I've ruled that the pact between the patron and warlock acts as a conduit between the prime material plane and the patron - and a trickle of primal energy flows through that conduit, benefiting the patron as well as granting the warlock their powers. So as long as the warlock lives and gains power (i.e. gains levels) the patron gains more and more power from their relationship.

The more warlocks the patron has, the more power they gain. Plus, you know, the whole "I own your soul" thing for the fiend patrons.

I do allow warlocks in my game to make additional pacts with their patron for more power - these pacts incur a much greater cost for the warlock and often require them to pursue certain goals for the patron - killing specific people, destroying or stealing certain items, or making a certain number of living sacrifices to the patron. Mostly it's NPC warlocks, but I have one player whose warlock owes his patron "3 tasks to be determined later" - one of which has been fulfilled.

 

[Lanliss]

Mostly it's NPC warlocks, but I have one player whose warlock owes his parton "3 tasks to be determined later" - one of which has been fulfilled.

Oooh, nasty! I would hate to be in a debt when I didn't know what the payment would be. What kind of power was your player asking for that he needed so desperately?

 

[Caliban]

Oooh, nasty! I would hate to be in a debt when I didn't know what the payment would be. What kind of power was your player asking for that he needed so desperately?

A custom invocation I designed. It's kind of a test case to see if the PC can accomplish the tasks. If he can...then another pact for more power will be offered. (He wasn't really desperate...just greedy. )

It's part of the overall story arc for the campaign - eventually the warlock will be in a position to determine the fate of the world...and owe his patron his loyalty. I've already planned out the apocalypse, it's up to the PC's if they can prevent it. Not by strength of arms, but strength of character. If I don't screw it up along the way, anyway.

 

[Ganymede81]

Instead of a patron revoking a PC warlock's boon by cutting off their power, I'd instead have the patron attempt to revoke the PC warlock's boon with extreme prejudice. In other words, I'd have the patron's goons come to try to kill the warlock. That way, you get to have an adventure.

It worked for Spawn, right?

 

[Warpiglet]

If you enable patrons to strip powers, you reduce fun future conflicts. I like the idea of an apprentice facing a master if they are at cross purposes. Star Wars is chock full of this dynamic!

I am playing a warlock who believes he is following the guidance of an angel. In reality, the angel is fallen and is slowly trying to manipulate the character to evil. For now, the character is LN and using his powers to fight evil. I suspect he was LG at one time. In the future he will either fall into evil or rebel and try to confront his master or vice versa. If he just loses all of abilities all tension is gone! It's Bambi vs. Godzilla! Keeping the powers to that point creates more story.

By the same token they do not demand a soul be forfeit. However, it might happen if the character does not turn from evil which is the whole point of the seduction.

Our way is not the right way per se, but it is certainly one interpretation. I am glad the rules were written as they were allowing for players to create many unique stories.

In short: I think it is up to you!

 

[jgsugden]

From a story perspective, the Warlock should be beholden to his master and need to live up to his deal or else he will lose his powers that his master is granting him. Although that is not explicit in the rules, it makes for a very good story and that is what a role playing game is all about.

However, to keep the game fun and the PC relevant, there should be an out that the player can choose to retain his powers. That out might involve another being granting him similar powers or another being granting him a different set of powers once the Warlock abandons his master. There are a lot of good story ideas to be played with around the core idea of an angry master.

 

[Caliban]

From a story perspective, the Warlock should be beholden to his master and need to live up to his deal or else he will lose his powers that his master is granting him. Although that is not explicit in the rules, it makes for a very good story and that is what a role playing game is all about.

However, to keep the game fun and the PC relevant, there should be an out that the player can choose to retain his powers. That out might involve another being granting him similar powers or another being granting him a different set of powers once the Warlock abandons his master. There are a lot of good story ideas to be played with around the core idea of an angry master.

I also like the idea of the PC being tricked into making the pact and actively working against their patron, only to find out everything is going "exactly as planned..." because the patron is that good at manipulation and trickery.

"Yes, I knew you would rescue the princess and topple the evil overlord. Why do you think I tricked you into becoming my minion?"

"But...but...he also had a pact with you! He was your most powerful warlock!"

"Yes...too powerful. But he served his purpose. Do you know how many people made pacts with me because they were being crushed under his heel? Now the time has come for the new generation to flourish and spread my influence. All thanks to you..."

 

[Jester David]

Sure.
Sounds like you could make a good story from that.

 

[Ancalagon]

Also, it should be noted that, in lore, most warlocks still need their patrons to learn new magic. Its not a once-and-done deal. Its an ongoing relationship. You use granted power against the Patron, then they'll just stop teaching you?

This is my understanding as well. A warlock who's having issues with his patron may gain more spell slots as s/he goes up in levels but new spells will have to come from another source, same as invocations (ie he gains more *power* but not more *knowledge*). This allows the warlock to be "dinged", power-wise, but not crippled, and allows the story to go forward until some kind of resolution has been reached.

This basically shows how the relationship is uneven, but *not* as uneven as between a cleric and his or her goddess.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Also, it should be noted that, in lore, most warlocks still need their patrons to learn new magic. Its not a once-and-done deal. Its an ongoing relationship. You use granted power against the Patron, then they'll just stop teaching you?

Which lore points to that? I've definately never seen Warlocks that way, by any kind of default assumption.

Every Warlock I've played gets access to secrets/a power source with the initial Pact, and is mostly on their own from there. They don't learn new powers from their patron, unless I'm running my Warlock as a student/protege of their "patron". Instead, they learn how to better use their power, and uncover new secrets and tricks and hacks and such, via experiences and trial and error.