D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

[MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION], the point is: these published adventures should be exemplars of how the rules and guidelines can be used to build adventures. They should be teaching tools for DMs wanting to create their own adventures. Not explaining (or at least giving reference to) design decisions made during the adventure creation is a missed opportunity IMHO. It doesn't help new DMs see the underlying design patterns that they can repurpose for themselves. Telling DMs to ignore the rules or change the rules misses the point.

I just think that's a weird rule to work into adventure design in general. The PCs rest when and where they want to. If they pick a place that's too dangerous, then sucks to be them.

I don't think an adventure designer puts any thought into where the PCs are going to rest, nor do I think they should. Somebody doesn't build a dungeon, castle, or tomb, expecting somebody to come and plunder it at some point, and say, "oh wait, I didn't give the murderhobo thieves someplace to rest and recover." They design it to kill the bastards that come to steal their stuff.

I can see a commentary or something in the Basic Set, or an adventure like LMoP. But I just don't think it's the DMs job, nor the adventure designer's job to design where the players take a rest. So there's no place for it in an adventure.

And while I'm fine with changing the rules, I don't think the DM needs to ignore or change the rules.

The game is a role playing game. Which means the players should be considering the actions that their character would make in their world. If the players feel that means that after every combat they would honestly sit down and camp for 24 hours so they can get in a long rest before moving on, a rule isn't going to change that.

The reason, in my opinion, why the rule is the way it is, is because of that very fact. If the players are going to schedule their adventuring around regaining hit points and abilities. There's really nothing you can do about it. So you can try, as a DM, to control that behavior - make a rule that says you have to have 3 encounters before you can take a short rest, for example. But I don't think that's the right answer either. What's an encounter? What if they open a door, see 6 orcs, and close the door and run. Is that an encounter? It's all just people playing games trying to manipulate the rules and the DM.

My answer is the same as it's always been. People rest when they are tired and hungry, about every 4 hours or so usually, and in between they adventure. If you aren't at full hit points, deal with it. Don't have an action surge left? Deal with it. Suck it up and go adventuring. Change your battle tactics to account for being below full strength. It's not a video game or a collectible card game, you can do anything you can think of.

There is absolutely no other approach that works 100% of the time. The DMs job is not to control the PCs, that's the players job. And if they want to sit there and twiddle their thumbs, then so be it. If there's a legitimate reason a monster might wander by, then it does. If not, then they sit there.

If you really want to fix that problem? Spend the next hour sitting there with them. When they aren't moving, we aren't playing. If it's lunchtime, then we'll hand wave the hour rest. Otherwise we're sitting here at camp. And before you think that's just a punitive thing - make everybody stay in character. No phones, no out-of-character talk. They don't have to act their character's parts, but they need to talk only about things their characters would. My players actually do spend a lot of time talking amongst themselves, and it's not forced either.

Either it will enrich your game, or they'll stop taking short rests at stupid times to game the rules.

Or you can just tell them that stopping for a rest after every combat is ruining your fun and immersion. Try to think like the characters and not just play the rules. Maybe they just don't know it annoys you.
 

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A separate PDF giving insight into the design decisions would be awesome and I think I proposed that earlier here (or in another thread). But for something as fundamental as how the adventure anticipates resting I think that should be in the adventure itself.

I think this is a great idea and a missed opportunity. The biggest miss recently is that they didn't release a pdf with the original art for Tomb of Horrors to go with Tales from the Yawning Portal.
 


TL;DR: Everybody's telling me the solution to my problems is X, only X isn't in the game. So what kind of crappy solution is that?!

Longer version:

Go read Angry GM's take on resting. It's fairly typical and several posters give me the identical spiel, often complete with the dismissive tone:
http://theangrygm.com/ask-angry-resting-in-5e-and-why-its-fine/

The spiel, btw, is "just add time constraints through your story". But that's just dishonest - it's not part of either the rules or its supplements. The game should IMNSHO work right out of the box, and story-driven constraints on resting frequency simply isn't part of the game as shipped. Like at all.

Or, as commented by Kernel Class in conjunction with that post:

Now, here comes the elephant(s) in the room, that nobody seems to actually want to discuss:

* The official published scenarios never* provide what's needed to enforce this attrition.

* The rules never enforce any attrition.

* In fact, the rules bend over backwards making attrition as unenforceable as possible. It's practically impossible to interrupt a short rest. There are spells that trivialize the danger of a particular location (everything from Goodberry to Magnicifient Mansion via Rope Trick).

*) please read "seldom" in place of "never" instead of angrily posting an example proving me wrong. I don't care if there are examples of adventures that address attrition, the point is that most adventures don't.



So, let us discuss.

How do you make attrition work in a game where you don't fancy doing all the hard work, and instead rely on official published supplements?

How many encounters and short rests do you have per long rest? What does the party need to do when they feel they need to stop and rest? What's stopping them from doing this?

I should state out right that at low levels, the game works alright and there isn't much of a problem. Below level four or seven (or so), heroes are certainly so fragile no combat is truly "trivial" and they will feel the "attrition" even before they've used up any resources!

Feel free to use existing modules as examples; anything from Rise of Tiamat through Storm King's Thunder and Tales of the Yawning Portal. Just keep in mind that I'm mainly thinking of the mid game and above. If you absolutely must have a specific level to discuss let's use level 10; that way every published campaign qualifies.

The only constraint I'm asking of you is that you can't dismiss or "solve" the issue by the flippant "just add time constraints to the adventure" thing. Trust me, I've been given that piece of useless advice enough times already. I am specifically asking about ways on how to make D&D and its rules work, given the assumptions that 5th edition suddenly places upon the game.

You are right, 5e overnight full heal and refresh stuffs up attrition a lot and makes most wilderness treks and city adventures a cakewalk (nova, travel, rest, nova, travel, rest). It's a long time problem. Yes time constraints can help, but as you note, that becomes artificial after a while.

If you want a grittier system, you might look at:

Using 1d6 days long rest (or 1d4 in a inn, etc)
Overnight short rest

However this changes class balance, making long rest classes weaker.

If you want a grittier DnD like variant, with a slower recovery built in, you might consider Low Fantasy Gaming RPG (free PDF, or print on demand - 1d6 day long rest, 5 min short rest with limits and checks required, but all classes refresh on the same basis: https://lowfantasygaming.com/ )
 

While I completely agree that DMs should be given this material, shouldn't it be in the DMG (or its own book) if only to avoid having it repeated in every adventure?

Lanefan
The point is to acknowledge how different stories require different resting frequencies.

When you trek through a desert, trying to find the next oasis, having 6-8 encounters a day is not appropriate. 6-8 encounters in total (the entire desert trek) might be more realistic, given the emptiness of arid sand and stone.

And so this wilderness/travel adventure should be empowered to say you are not allowed any long rest at all (except by giving up and returning from whence you came).

Then, the same party of heroes finally find the long-lost City of Sand in the middle of this desert. This adventure is an action-filled dungeon romp with lots of undead monsters and construct guardians, and so a long rest is definitely needed when they reach the City.

But what's more, there's a lot of monsters in this dungeon, and the adventure recommends 5 minute short rests and 1 hour long rests, to keep up the action.

This way the exact same adventurer (same world, same campaign, same PC) goes from "not a long rest in a month" to "four long rests today, and the mummies keep pouring out of the catacombs".

While you could ask for a DMG that allows this, a more realistic hope would be a PHB/DMG that simply says "in the end, rest frequency is up to the adventure author".

Hence us talking about this stuff being in the adventure, rather than the DMG :)
 


You are right, 5e overnight full heal and refresh stuffs up attrition a lot and makes most wilderness treks and city adventures a cakewalk (nova, travel, rest, nova, travel, rest). It's a long time problem. Yes time constraints can help, but as you note, that becomes artificial after a while.

Thank you for being one of the few that can acknowledge that your favorite game isn't flawless and could be improved further :)

If you want a grittier system
What I want is an edition of Dungeons & Dragons that acknowledges that this is a problem for some DMs and scenarios.

What I want is an edition of the PHB and DMG that doesn't tell the players in no uncertain terms "have an hour - you can count on getting your rest". The default assumption should be to defer to the DM and scenario how and if resting works.

I hate being a DM that takes away stuff the PHB gives out. I'd much rather the PHB didn't give it out in the first place.

So thanks, but no, I don't want a grittier system... and I definitely don't want another non-D&D system :) I'm perfectly fine with the non-grittiness of D&D. I just want the PHB and DMG to default to "ask your DM / check the scenario" rather than "if you don't get to rest, your DM is probably just a bastard".
 


That's never the problem.

The problem is that it is easy - nay trivial - to rest where there is no danger at all.
As it should be in any RPG unless you play a game where Freddy Krueger haunts you.
The problem is that classes recharge some powers (or features if you don't want to call them that way) after a short rest, it is you who is not acknowledging the problem and the one who is dishonest dismissing the only solutions that can be given unless you change the rules.
 

zapp...But what's more, there's a lot of monsters in this dungeon, and the adventure recommends 5 minute short rests and 1 hour long rests, to keep up the action.
.....
Changing the time amount changes nothing!
It is 6/22/1493 8 AM SHORT Rest.
It is now 0805 hrs. The door to your room is flung open. The Orc delivers his pie to the wizards face.
It is now 0900 hrs. The door to your room is flung open. The Orc delivers his pie to the wizards face.
It is now 6/23/1493 0800 hrs. . The door to your room is flung open. The Orc delivers his pie to the wizards face.
It is now 6/23/1494 0800 hrs. . The door to your room is flung open. The Orc delivers his birthday pie to the wizards face. Everyone is a year older.
All the DM is going to do is take 3 seconds to note the time. So unless the story is time limited nothing happens.

I been DMING White Plume Mt. Last week I made the players roll for the wandering monster checks. They had two combats before they could take a short rest. Real result was very little.
 

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