The problem with that is that Booming Blade has a range of 5'. The target would have to be adjacent to you when you use Booming Blade.
D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e
The problem with that is that Booming Blade has a range of 5'. The target would have to be adjacent to you when you use Booming Blade.
SpoCk0nd0pe
First Post
Another thing while looking at possible spells to scale:
During my search I stumbled upon erupting earth. My math reaches another conclusion then yours: The expectancy value of the d12 is 6.5. Calculating with that I get 19.5 base damage scaling at 6.5 dmg per level. The fireball scales at 3.5 damage per level. So the difference shrinks by three points of damage per extra level used. This means they deal the same damage when using a 6th level slot (which is quite high).
I would argue though that even at lower levels the trade off is worth it. 1. Erupting Earth deals bludgeoning damage which is generally a better damage type and 2. It turns the area into difficult terrain, adding some utility.
According to this chart, which seems to be mostly correct (baring some minor rounding errors), Errupting earth seems to be the overall best scaling AoE spell at levels 5-8. It is only outdone by Vitriolic Sphere, which does it's damage over two rounds:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...lFDBoeiiLsuzq94fBjwkoHKm18/edit#gid=124665534
(this is assuming that the At Higher Levels clause in the pdf has a mistake and actually adds 1d12 for every level above 3rd)
During my search I stumbled upon erupting earth. My math reaches another conclusion then yours: The expectancy value of the d12 is 6.5. Calculating with that I get 19.5 base damage scaling at 6.5 dmg per level. The fireball scales at 3.5 damage per level. So the difference shrinks by three points of damage per extra level used. This means they deal the same damage when using a 6th level slot (which is quite high).
I would argue though that even at lower levels the trade off is worth it. 1. Erupting Earth deals bludgeoning damage which is generally a better damage type and 2. It turns the area into difficult terrain, adding some utility.
According to this chart, which seems to be mostly correct (baring some minor rounding errors), Errupting earth seems to be the overall best scaling AoE spell at levels 5-8. It is only outdone by Vitriolic Sphere, which does it's damage over two rounds:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...lFDBoeiiLsuzq94fBjwkoHKm18/edit#gid=124665534
(this is assuming that the At Higher Levels clause in the pdf has a mistake and actually adds 1d12 for every level above 3rd)
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BladeMaster0182
First Post
Not sure if anyone pointed this out but you rate Web green but Evard's Black Tentacles blue. You said having anchor points was a disadvantage but if you layer it on the ground, it takes up the same space as a Black Tentacles spell. Both spells restrain, create difficult terrain, and both require a Dex save to avoid. If an NPC gets stuck in Black Tentacles, they have to make a Str or Dex check (not save) as an action to escape. This is good because not only do they not gain proficiency (or legendary actions) but they have to waste an action to get out (meaning no attacks or spells).
However, where I get confused on the rating is that Web, even in it's layered web form, is almost comparable to Black Tentacles. If you get it anchored, it obscures vision (awesome) and can block passageways, etc. If someone is caught in it, they have to make a Str action check (not save) to get out. This is somewhat superior to Black Tentacles because while most monsters have good Str, nearly all monsters have good Str OR good Dex. On top of that, Web lasts an hour.
The one advantage I see to Black Tentacles is the damage which is great if you have multiple NPCs trapped and you can deal damage while they cool their heels. It's an appropriate upgrade over web (a 2nd level spell). However, I think if I have a choice between a 2nd level spell that does most of what Black Tentacles does and a 4th level, I'm going to pick the 2nd level.
So I would say, revise your ratings. While I think Black Tentacles earns it's Blue rating, Web is definately also deserving of a Blue rating.
However, where I get confused on the rating is that Web, even in it's layered web form, is almost comparable to Black Tentacles. If you get it anchored, it obscures vision (awesome) and can block passageways, etc. If someone is caught in it, they have to make a Str action check (not save) to get out. This is somewhat superior to Black Tentacles because while most monsters have good Str, nearly all monsters have good Str OR good Dex. On top of that, Web lasts an hour.
The one advantage I see to Black Tentacles is the damage which is great if you have multiple NPCs trapped and you can deal damage while they cool their heels. It's an appropriate upgrade over web (a 2nd level spell). However, I think if I have a choice between a 2nd level spell that does most of what Black Tentacles does and a 4th level, I'm going to pick the 2nd level.
So I would say, revise your ratings. While I think Black Tentacles earns it's Blue rating, Web is definately also deserving of a Blue rating.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Web also has a larger area if you turn the cube on its side. About 20' x 28'.
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FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Spell Sniper feat.
Treantmonklvl20
Explorer
TheBigHouse has a wizard guide that does a great job of comparing the scaling of blasts. You can find it HERE.
I've had some conversations with him, specifically regarding Erupting Earth's scaling value, and scaling of blast spells in general. My view is that fireball is a very good 3rd level spell and a terrible 6th level spell. Doing 39 average damage (on a failed save) with a 6th level spell slot is abysmal. Being as good as fireball cast with a 6th level slot is not good, it's not even so-so.
Essentially, I would argue there is no spell slot where Erupting Earth isn't awful, even though with high level slots it becomes a bit less awful than fireball becomes.
To understand how poorly these spells scale - let's take a trip right to 9th level and compare them with a 9th level blast. Fireball will provide you with 14d6 (8d6+6d6) or 49 damage on a failed save. Erupting earth will provide you with 9d12 (3d12+6d12) or 58.5 damage on a failed save. Meteor swarm will provide you with 40d6 or 140 damage on a failed save, this doesn't even take into account the larger area, the longer range, or that it will ignore a globe of invulnerability.
TL/DR: Never cast Erupting Earth or Fireball with a 6+ level slot. Blasts don't scale well.
It's no secret I'm a fan of battlefield control - but turning a small area into difficult terrain is almost trivial. As for resistances/immunities - you are correct that bludgeoning is (significantly) less common, however, I don't agree with the conclusions you've drawn from that. Keep in mind that at 3rd level (because we aren't using higher level slots, because of terrible scaling), the average damage of a fireball is 28 (pretty good), and the average damage of Erupting earth is 19.5 (pretty bad).
When I hit something with a fireball, and discover it has resistance (I would never intentionally case a fireball at something I knew had fire resistance), I am disappointed, because now my fireball damage drops into the mid-teens. That's shameful damage for fireball. For Erupting earth, that's only slightly below average, and you can expect underwhelming damage with every casting, regardless of the enemy's resistances. That's a kind of consistency I don't find compelling.
TL/DR: Erupting Earth's damage is consistently bad, so it doesn't matter if it is seldom resisted. Making a tiny area difficult terrain is not particularly useful.
Imagine you go to a fish market and there is a shrimp vendor there, you like shrimp, so go to take a look what he has. The smell is overwhelming, and the shrimp vendor explains that this batch is all pretty old, and probably rotting a bit. He holds out a shrimp to you and explains that this is the "best" of all the expired rotting shrimp he has, as it's expired by less time than the rest. Do you eat it?
This is why that chart is not particularly meaningful. Blast spells universally scale poorly. Finding the one that scales the least poorly doesn't mean it scales well. It scales poorly, just like all blast spells do. That it scales a bit less terribly than other blast spells is kind of irrelevant.
Finally, I would add that there is a reason I don't rate any blast spells between levels 4-8 particularly well, as blast spells seem to hit a "slump" at this point, failing to keep up with the power increase of other spells over this period. This becomes particularly disappointing if you are a big fan of blasting, as we know how few slots you get of the higher level spells, meaning you get fewer castings of poorer spells. That said, I have advised since day 1 that in 5e, blasting is a good hobby, but not a good primary focus for wizards.
SpoCk0nd0pe
First Post
Thanks for your assessment Treantmonk!
I'm not trying to say that blasting is a particularly good use of spell slots for Wizards. I don't even think it is a good use of spell slots for most casters. But there are not too many alternatives if you multi class and want to get something out of those spell slots.
Comparing Erupting Earth to Meteor is kind of unfair because Meteor scales way better then anything else. Fireball is also a spell that does particularly much damage for it's level. If you look at all blast options in spell slots ranging from level 5-8, Erupting Earth is still the best. It is an option for multi classed character who want to make use of higher level spell slots but lack higher level spells. It is probably the best and most versatile spell if you want to use a level 5-8 slot for blasting.
I'm not trying to say that blasting is a particularly good use of spell slots for Wizards. I don't even think it is a good use of spell slots for most casters. But there are not too many alternatives if you multi class and want to get something out of those spell slots.
Comparing Erupting Earth to Meteor is kind of unfair because Meteor scales way better then anything else. Fireball is also a spell that does particularly much damage for it's level. If you look at all blast options in spell slots ranging from level 5-8, Erupting Earth is still the best. It is an option for multi classed character who want to make use of higher level spell slots but lack higher level spells. It is probably the best and most versatile spell if you want to use a level 5-8 slot for blasting.
Hi,
Upcast Hold Person to target more people? So many possibilities. There are many alternatives that are better to "get something out of those spell slots." But none of these are blasts.
Seems like you missed his point: You shouldn't want to use a level 5-8 slot for blasting. I mean, you can, of course. No rule against wanting to pessimize a wizard. Anyway, Ken
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
If your goal is to get damage out of a level 5-8 slot, but you only have access to 3rd level spells, you have better options than Erupting Earth. Those options still aren't blasting options though. Consider Animate Dead VI, which occupies a similar niche to a blasting spell. You get 7-10 skeleton archers doing 7d6+14 (38) to 10d6+20 (55) damage (times hit probability) per round with basic equipment, and like a blasting spell there is no concentration requirement. Compare that to 6d12 (39, save for half) in a 20' cube from Erupting Earth VI. In both cases you have something to do while your concentration is busy on e.g. Hasting the party fighter, but if you pick Erupting Earth VI you get 6d12 in a small area, and if you pick Animate Dead VI + e.g. Fire Bolt you get 3d10 + 7d6+14 or more to a single target, and you get to repeat that every round until the skeletons are dead.
Upcast blasting spells are just terrible in 5E, even as a way of killing things. Even Fireball isn't that great any more, due to HP inflation--it used to be able to kill a troll outright, but nowadays it just depletes about 1/3 of the troll's HP and stops it from regenerating for a single round.
