D&D 5E Crazy idea: 2nd ed multiclassing in 5e

Anyway, even in AD&D, the races limitation was real, because that limited the available multiclass combinations. I don't remember the details but I'm pretty sure that dwarves had more restrictive multiclassing options than elves, and half-elves had the most.
That's how I remember it (from 1e), Dwarves could prettymuch be fighter, thief or fighter/thief (NPCs could be clerics), elves, fighters, magic-user, & thieves in any combination, and half-elves the same, plus cleric (but half-elves also had some lower level-limits on the MU side than elves). Half-elves could also be single-class Druids of 'unlimited' (druids only went up to 14th) level, amusingly enough, leading to one of my favorite 1e characters. ;)

So, there were very real restrictions on races, yes, I just have a hard time thinking of the race-restriction as being a restriction on MCing. More the other-way-round, that class/level limits (and without the level limits, the class limits weren't too meaningful) being a limit on the races. 6of1, I guess.

It matters less in 5E, but not because of Bounded Accuracy.
Not just because of BA. ;) Being 1 level behind in 5e might not even mean having a different proficiency bonus, depending on the level.

It's mostly because 5E classes are front-loaded with goodies (e.g. Fighter gets two attacks at level 5 instead of level 13),
And that, though, not so much compared to 3e.
and because 5E spells are kind of bland and weak.
This may shock you, but they've been powered up substantially - in power, versatility and sheer numbers known & slots/day - from 4e.
In AD&D, getting access to 5th level spells like Magic Jar, Ironskin and Domination represented a quantum leap in power, and each level after that brought further goodies
I'd really always more pegged 6th as the spell-level inflection point, maybe because of the way the MU spells/day chart took that extra level to get 6th level spells, at 12th - but I'm still thinking 1e, so Ironskin and Dominate weren't even on the menu, and Magic-Jar struck me, at the time, as too weird and complicated. OTOH, Enchant an Item, Stone to Flesh (reversible), and Death Spell, among others, stood out. FWIW, there's still (or again) a clear dividing line between 5th- and 6th+ level spells in the 5e progression, the latter clearly being more precious slots.
Yet, at the same time, even as spells were gaining very dramatic effects, saves were getting easier and easier to make...
 

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I've explored this idea before in another thread. There was not a whole lot of commentary there, but it was quite late in the thread. Our group is currently playing Savage Worlds, so I haven't had a chance to test it or invest any more thought into it, but I'd still like to test it out.

I hate the idea of multiple XP tables. Milestone XP streamlines the game too much. Frankly, I want Proficiency Bonus and Hit Dice to remain consistent across my players. Similarly, I don't want any irritating rules where you can't combine abilities or have to track things separately. I like the combined spellcasting chart in the 5e multiclassing chapter.

Here's how I'd imagine Gestalt/hybrid/AD&D multiclassing. The drawback to this method, as always, is complexity.

Select two or three classes. Then:

1. Remove all path options from the classes. Mutliclassing sacrifices the benefits of specialization, so multiclass characters never select a class path for any of their classes.

2. Skill proficiencies: Select two of your classes. Select two skills from either of the skill lists for the selected classes. If one or more of the selected classes is Bard, Ranger, or Rogue, instead select three skills from either of the skill lists for the selected classes.

3. Save proficiencies: Select one of your classes. Gain the save proficiencies for that class.

4. Weapon, armor, tool proficiencies: Combine the weapon, armor, and tool proficiencies of all your classes.

You gain levels normally, and your level is used to determine your proficiency bonus and hit dice. However, your class ability level is reduced, so you will not gain new abilities each level.

5. Proficiency bonus: Your character level determines your proficiency bonus. A level 11 Fighter/Wizard has the proficiency bonus of a level 11 character.

6. Hit dice: Alternate hit dice each level, so a Fighter/Wizard would use d10, then d6, then d10, then d6, etc. A Fighter/Rogue/Wizard would use d10 -> d8 -> d6 -> d10 -> d8 -> d6, etc. You must always keep your hit dice within 1 of each other. A level 13 Fighter/Rogue/Wizard would have 5d10 + 4d8 + 4d6 Hit Dice. You would not be able to gain a sixth d10 hit die until you had both five d8 and five d6 hit dice.

7. Use the chart below to determine your character's class ability levels. Your character has the abilities of the class ability level. Thus, a level 5 Fighter/Wizard has a class ability level of 3, and has the class abilities of a 3rd level Fighter, and the class abilities of a 3rd level Wizard. However, such a character would have a +3 proficiency bonus that a 5th level character has, and would have 3d10 + 2d6 Hit Dice from levels. Again, you never select any class paths, so you never gain any abilities tied to class paths.

Code:
+-----------------+--------------------------+----------------------------+
| Character Level | Dual Class Ability Level | Triple Class Ability Level |
+-----------------+--------------------------+----------------------------+
|               1 |                       1  |                         1  |
|               2 |                       1  |                         1  |
|               3 |                       2  |                         1  |
|               4 |                       3  |                         2  |
|               5 |                       3  |                         3  |
|               6 |                       4* |                         3  |
|               7 |                       5  |                         4* |
|               8 |                       6  |                         4  |
|               9 |                       6  |                         4  |
|              10 |                       7  |                         5  |
|              11 |                       8* |                         6  |
|              12 |                       9  |                         6  |
|              13 |                       9  |                         7  |
|              14 |                      10  |                         7  |
|              15 |                      11  |                         8* |
|              16 |                      12* |                         9  |
|              17 |                      12  |                        10  |
|              18 |                      13  |                        10  |
|              19 |                      14  |                        11  |
|              20 |                      15  |                        12* |
+-----------------+--------------------------+----------------------------+

* Indicates a level at which the character gains an ASI.

For the curious, the formula for class ability level for 2 classes is character level * 0.75 rounded down. For 3 classes, it's class ability level = character level * 0.60 rounded down. Minimum level is 1, obviously.

8. When a character gains an ASI at class levels 4, 8 and 12, the character gains only one ASI, not an ASI from each class. Similarly, abilities described in the multiclass section as overlapping, such as Extra Attack, still overlap.

9. For spellcasting slots, use your character level and the combined spellcasting chart in the multiclassing chapter to determine your slots. If one of your classes is Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, or Wizard, then your character slots are determined by your character level. If none of your classes is Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, or Wizard and one of your classes is Paladin or Ranger, you have spell slots equal to half your character level. For example, a level 10 Ranger/Rogue has class abilities as a 7th level Ranger and as a 7th level Rogue, and has spell slots as a 5th level character on the combined chart. For another example, a level 11 Fighter/Wizard has a class ability level of 8. You would use the level 11 on the spellcasting chart to determine the number of spell slots per day, but would prepare spells as an 8th level Wizard.

10. Cantrips, which normally key to your character level for scaling, instead use the class ability level. So a level 20 Fighter/Wizard casts fire bolt as though her total character level were 15, not 20. Other abilities may also use the class ability level instead of the character level.




At this point, I would do some playtesting. Where things are at above is what I think would be slightly overpowered. My guess is that there's some discrepancy in balance between the two class and three class level charts. I'd step down the factor 0.05 each time. The balanced factor might be closer to 0.15 lower than it is above, so two class might need to be down to 0.60 (level 20 = 12), and three class might need to go down as far as 0.45 (level 20 = 9).

You'd have to make some special rules, I'm sure. Warlocks and clerics are a bit strange without their paths. Certain ability combinations are really good, like Fighter/Paladin character level 15, or Fighter/Rogue/Paladin at character level 19. My guess is that there are some combinations that are simply too good, so you might need to limit the classes or class combinations in some way.

The skill, save, and proficiency rules could be made a whole lot more complex to add flexibility, but I don't really feel like that's worthwhile.
 

in 2nd ed, multiclassing was quite different than it is today. A fighter/mage was almost as powerfull as a mage or a fighter of that level. This was "balanced out" via 2 ways. First, this option was limited to only certain races (basically, not for humans) and was also level-capped. I think we can all agree that this is a terrible idea. Also, on average, they were one level behind (or 2 level behinds for triple class), although with the caveat that because different classes had different XP requirements this was not an absolute rule (so for example, in a party where the average single class member was level 8, the multi-class character would be level 7/7). HP was averaged out between each class, so a level 7/7 fighter mage would have an average HP at the midpoint between a fighter and a mage at level 7.

Because being one level behind wasn't "enough" to balance, *and* probably because "balancing" via race restriction/level cap was a terrible idea, 3e (and 5e) went in a completely different direction, an "additive" process where a level 8 character could be a level 8 fighter, a level 4/4 fighter/mage, 1/7 rogue/sorcerer etc etc... This was a reasonable approach, but not everyone is 100% happy with it, and part of me misses those 2nd ed style multi-class characters...
I'm very interested to see what comes of this, as if I ever run 5e this is how I'd want to do it also...but with a limit of two classes for any one character.

Reason is that doing it this way gives much more flexibility in how one wants to split the classes...you can go 75% fighter 25% thief if you want, or whatever.

So I've been thinking. First, In 5e, being one level behind matters more than it did in 2nd ed, because it's not just about getting those sweet sweet level 3 spells. Almost every classes gets something at each level, and there are also the ASI and the proficiency bonuses to consider. So being behind 1 level in 5e "hurts" more than in 2nd ed. But I think it's not enough. So what if you didn't have access to your subclass? A fighter mage wouldn't be a "chamption/abjurer" - he would only get the benefits of being a plain fighter and a plain mage? Would this be enough to "balance" a 2nd ed style multi class character in 5e?
One answer might be to drop or really rein in ASI's for everyone. Or, your ASI's are tied to one class only (your higher-level one, if you're running an uneven xp split).

So to recap, my proposal is:

A: a 2-class multiclass character would be one level behind (XP cost to reach level 5/5 is the same as reaching level 6)
What about uneven xp splits? You're assuming, it seems, that it'll always be a 50-50 split between the classes.
B: HP would be averaged between the 2 class value, as per 2nd ed.
(edit: A level 5/5 character has 5 hitdice, *not* 10, ie the level 5/5 fighter mage does NOT have 5d10+5d6, rather 5D10+5d6/2)
Why not just average the die size instead? A 5-5 fighter-mage would have 5d8 as 8 is the average of 10 and 6. Again, this allows for uneven splits - a 75% fighter 25% mage would use a d9 for example.
C: Sub-class benefits would not be available.
D: Skill selection would be taken from the combined list of both class list of skills, but number of skills would not be doubled, but rather be the best of either (so if class A gives you 2 skills, and class B gives you 3 skills, pick 3 skills)
Most things should work this way where possible.
E: ASI would be based on the overall character level - so a level 4/4 fighter/mage has 1 ASI, not 2!
And a 6/4 fighter mage has 2, not 3. Tie these to the highest-level class. Problem solved.

Would this work?

There are some caveats here

1: I don't think this works for triple class
Triple (or quadruple etc.) classing is an abomination anyway, I'd have no problem just banning it outright. But I've seen it done in 1e (we use a similar system to what 2e had) and it can sort-of work...provided the player is good at basic arithmetic and can keep track of dividing down and applying their xp.
2: Some class have more loaded in their subclasses than others
3: I have no clue what to do with the warlock, which effectively has a subclass made of 2 sub-sub classes
4: I don't think that arcane:arcane should be allowed, heck maybe limit it to a single spell-casting class
Another option is to make it that some classes can't do it - the one class takes so much time effort and concentration (or devotion) that to dilute it thusly would render it inoperable. Monk and Paladin (and Warlock, and Druid?) could go this way.

Tony Vargas said:
Not a limitation, at all, since those races were generally 'better' than humans, anyway.
There's no reason at all not to open this up to humans as well.

Lan-"but note such a system would only work where the DM gives out actual xp to divide, and would not work well (or at all) in games where the DM arbitrarily levels up the PCs now and then"-efan
 

I've had a few thoughts about multiclassing/hybrids. One of the things I've looked at is adding class abilities from one class to a base class, I think the inspiration for this came from Castles & Crusades. My initial brainstorm notes are below. Essentially it is gaining the abilities of a second class at half the rate adding in only the abilities that came from the class, no subclass abilities of the second class were gained.

Hybrids must earn an extra 50% experience.

Cleric Hybrid
Level 2: Gain Spellcasting as a 1/2 caster. Prepare spells equal to half your level + wisdom bonus. You know 2 cantrips from the cleric list at level 2 and gain a 3rd at level 8. Maximum spell level prepared is based off a half caster in all cases.
Level 4: Channel Divinity (1/rest) to turn undead.
Level 10: Destroy Undead (1/2)
Level 12: Channel Divinity (2/rest)
Level 16: Destroy Undead (CR 1)

What if I am a spellcaster?
You use the better advancement of spell slots. A paladin-cleric or ranger-cleric would have no change although they would have more spells prepared. A wizard-cleric would use the advancement for their wizard class. A fighter-cleric who picks up Eldritch Knight may use the better advancement, however, Wizard spells are still learned based on their Eldritch Knight's maximum spell slot level.

Fighter Hybrid
Level 1: Fighting Style, simple weapons, martial weapons, light armour, medium armour, shields
Level 4: Action Surge
Level 10: Extra Attack
Level 12: Ability Score Improvement
Level 18: Indomitable (1 use)

Rogue Hybrid
Level 1: Expertise (2 skills), thieves tools, simple weapons
Level 2: Sneak Attack 1d6
Level 6: Sneak Attack 2d6
Level 10: Sneak Attack 3d6, Uncanny Dodge
Level 14: Sneak Attack 4d6, Evasion
Level 18: Sneak Attack 5d6

Wizard Hybrid
Level 2: Gain Spellcasting as a 1/2 caster. Prepare spells equal to half your level + intelligence bonus. You know 2 cantrips from the wizard list at level 2 and gain a 3rd at level 8. Maximum wizard spell known/prepared is based off a half caster in all cases.
Level 2: Spellbook, Ritual Casting.

Another option I thought of was adding a subclass to another class and adjusting to fit. I can't find where I left my notes and I only looked at adding wizard to fighter, I hadn't gone through the full run of classes. Basically, the fighter gained the subclass abilities of the wizard (for example, the evoker) instead of choosing a fighter subclass. They also gained spells like an Eldritch Knight.
 

My own thoughts on this;

Creation:
1) Use the MC stat requirements in the PHB.
2) Pick as many classes as you want, that you qualify for.
3) At 1st lv you receive the largest HD, the most favorable armor/weapon proficiencies, the highest # of skill profs, + any class required prof (ex: Thieves tools)
4) Your spell slots/lists are tracked separately,per class, & cannot be combined.

Advancement:
Advancing in multiple classes is slower than for single classed characters. That is how it worked in 1e/2e, that is how it should work now.
XP = When you receive xp you divide it by the # of classes you have. As all classes lv at an equal rate here in 5e the book keeping is nice & simple. You're MCx2 (say Ftr/Wiz) & the your total xp share is 1000? You record 500 on your sheet.
Essentially it just takes you double/triple/etc the listed points to advance.
Or you can dutifully track it Ftr:500xp/Wizard:500xp....
Milestones = Two thoughts.
1) You only lv up every two milestones. Or three, or however many classes you've got.
2) Or, in order to "see" some progress being made, pick one class to lv up in per milestone. The next milestone reached allows you to lv up in a class that you're a lower lv in.
HD
If you're leveling up all classes at the same time, average the total HP gained by the # of classes.
If you're leveling up 1 class per milestone, again, average the total HP gained by the # of classes.

Proficiency Bonus: Only increases when all of your classes are the same lv.
ASIs/Feats: You only gain one ASI/Feat when all of your classes are the same lv.

Any other class bonuses (including sub-classes) are gained when you attain the correct lv in whatever class.

I don't see any reason to disallow any class combo mechanically. Multiple caster classes won't be any harder to track than they were in 1e/2e.
 

Triple (or quadruple etc.) classing is an abomination anyway, I'd have no problem just banning it outright. But I've seen it done in 1e (we use a similar system to what 2e had) and it can sort-of work...provided the player is good at basic arithmetic and can keep track of dividing down and applying their xp.

Good news! There's this new fangled thing that came out a few years back called a calculator. And now it even comes standard in everyones phones!
The players don't even need to understand math (let alone be good at it), just push the right buttons. And if they don't know what the right buttons are? They can just ask Siri to do it for them.
 

Good news! There's this new fangled thing that came out a few years back called a calculator. And now it even comes standard in everyones phones!
The players don't even need to understand math (let alone be good at it), just push the right buttons.
You'd think so, right?
And if they don't know what the right buttons are? They can just ask Siri to do it for them.
'Ask Siri' assumes ownership of an Apple device...no thanks. In fact, come to think of it nobody I game with has an Apple phone or tablet.

Ask Google might work, though.
 


Actually no, I dont think it was a terrible idea. :) I love 1e/2e multi-classing. Here is a website someone posted a while back with some 1e/2e style rules for 5e. I cannot remember who linked it...

http://bluishcertainty.blogspot.com/2017/01/5e-old-school-multiclassing-rules_29.html
To be clear, the "terrible idea" was balancing via level caps and race restrictions. Do you think those are a good way to balance multi class?

I will look at the link later :)

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using EN World mobile app
 


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