D&D 5E How to GM a huge ruin?

[RangerWickett]

This weekend my party of four paladins is going to ride to a Mines of Moria-esque ruined dwarven city. It once sprawled for miles and had a population of tens of thousands, but long ago the Tarrasque rampaged above it, collapsing sections and leaving rent open areas where rain could fall in and start to flood the tunnels. Now less than a thousand dwarves remain, and other creatures have inhabited the outskirts of the ruin.

In this situation, how would you handle the party navigating the ruin? Actually having the players map it would be a massive pain, though having a few checks to represent the PCs trying to make an accurate map would be interesting, I think. Maybe give the PCs a choice of how much the party explores (and the likelihood of them running into a random encounter or deadly part of a crumbling ruin), which gets them bonuses on mapping (which helps them locate treasures and find the villain they're pursuing).

The party has come here because they know a dwarven antipaladin has allied with gnolls and is looking for something magical inside the ruin. They don't know what specifically, but they want to stop him.

What I'd like the adventure to involve is getting to the ruin, seeing clues the antipaladin and his gnolls have arrived first, and then deciding how to move through the huge Moria-style tunnels and chambers. Do you sneak and avoid the enemies, since you don't know if they might call overwhelming reinforcements? Do you boldly challenge the gnolls? When they find out that the gnolls have taken hostages from among the dwarves and are threatening to kill them unless the other dwarves act as their slaves, how will they address that? Do they focus on finding the antipaladin in charge, and hope that once he's dead the cowardly gnolls will surrender their hostages in exchange for a chance to flee? Or do the PCs attack directly, and probably watch in horror as several dwarves have their throats slit?

How many different locations of interest do you think I need for the ruins to feel vast and a little daunting, but not so big that exploring them gets boring?

Ultimately, I'd like a big open chamber with some unusual terrain as the spot where the PCs (all of whom are mounted) can battle the antipaladin (who's also mounted) and his gnoll back-up. What the antipaladin is looking for is a small portal that recently opened to dimension where the Tarrasque was trapped. He wants to widen the portal and then go on a quest to awaken the Tarrasque. Maybe the fight could happen in a chamber with uneven stone floors - some areas flooded, some areas where it's safe to ride - and the ceiling is torn open hundreds of feet overhead from when the Tarrasque attacked long ago.

And I'd love it if somehow the PCs could interact with the antipaladin -- either talking to him directly or exchanging communication through a third party (maybe a dwarf slave courier?) -- so that they have a little more emotional weight when they finally get around to smiting him. Perhaps I have him in command of gnolls who are watching a bunch of hostages, and so the party is incentivized to talk, but once combat starts, he'll use some item to teleport away and withdraw to where the rift is?

Mostly, though, my challenge is figuring out how to present the ruin so that the party feels challenged by it, but also has the option to scout it and use that knowledge to outmaneuver the villain and save innocent lives.

Ideas?

 

[Lidgar]

Have you read the excellent 3.5 adventure Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk? It may provide the ideas you are looking for.

 

[Croesus]

And I'd love it if somehow the PCs could interact with the antipaladin -- either talking to him directly or exchanging communication through a third party (maybe a dwarf slave courier?) -- so that they have a little more emotional weight when they finally get around to smiting him. Perhaps I have him in command of gnolls who are watching a bunch of hostages, and so the party is incentivized to talk, but once combat starts, he'll use some item to teleport away and withdraw to where the rift is?

Ideas?

As the ruin has numerous collapsed (and, presumably, weakened) passages, you could have the party encounter the anti-paladin across one of the collapsed passages, too far to jump, but still able to communicate. Or if they encounter gnolls, some run away, the party pursues, the passage collapses under the gnolls, with the anti-paladin on the other side. Either way, they can have their discussion, then have to find an alternate path to reach the anti-paladin.

Alternately, as this will likely be a three dimensional area, the anti-paladin could be on a level above them, unreachable due to collapsed stairs or only via roundabout passages from where they are. He should be above, as otherwise they might simply jump down to him (taking falling damage) and precipitating combat too soon.

 

[Ancalagon]

Out of the abyss (the 5e adventure) had a system for navigating large underground areas...

 

[Wednesday Boy]

If the party is not familiar with the antipaladin and he isn't obviously an antipaladin (e.g., armor adorned with his evil god's symbol, palling around with gnolls, etc.) he could band with the party for some reason. They could help him get through a dangerous portion of the ruins. Or he could manipulate them to complete a task of his nefarious plot for him. Or he could give them misinformation to throw them off his trail. In my experience building a rapport with the party then betraying them and escaping is a good recipe for a nemesis that they love to hate.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

I design settings like these in a similar fashion to standard dungeons. However, rather than dungeon rooms you design dungeon 'areas' that cover dozens or even hundreds of smaller locations. For a dwarven city you can divide it in the Merchant's Ward, the Strong Gates, the Deep Mines, the High Pastures, the District of Ales and Lagers, the Temple of Stone, etc. For large or complex or interesting locations you can further subdivide them such as a Citadel's Outer Bailey, Inner Bailey, Keep, Dungeons, and so on.

Then, important locations within that are become equivalent to features in a standard dungeon room. For a temple you might note a great hall, holy altar, priest quarters, bell tower, etc. I tend to keep all descriptions as brief as possible and add details in play as needed, with prominent and dangerous locations receiving more attention.

In play, when the party enters an area you give them a brief listing of obvious sublocations which they investigate or ignore at their pleasure. I'd also advise a system of making searches (poking around in corners, taking good long looks at everything) and extensive searching (pulling everything apart looking for secrets and everything there) which will likely be checks and appropriate increasing time investments of your choosing. That what the party can decide what they think is important to search. Let them find treasures, allies, dangers, advantages, secret routes to other areas (one of favorites) and anything else cool.

All non-listed areas, including connector areas ('hallways') are assumed to be unimportant and uninteresting in keeping with the aesthetics of the setting: ruined chambers, long hallways, collapsed structures, deserted streets, etc. These might be even architecturally complex mazes but if they provide no decision points or interactive opportunities for the party, they can be easily ignored (or described in brief before moving on). Searches them will always be fruitless. The party will likely try to rest in these areas, which I tend to discourage by forcing random encounters (perhaps presaged by monster signs and spoor in my descriptions). Also noting transit times between areas is a must, modified for caution and stealth as usual.

Another good policy is to give the party some good leads and a basic layout for their exploration. Rather then the party being surprised by what the next dungeon room is, these large-scale explorations tend to work best if the party develops concrete objects. Have them find a map of the city from its glory days. It's no longer accurate, due to the ruination, but it gives them something to start with ('Hey, the Temple of Stone looks promising, let's try to get there.'), even if you cut off the direct paths or have placed hazards in the way. You can also use rumors and NPC interactions to give the party leads ('No one ever returns from the Duke's Catacombs' or 'A demon lives in a cave to the north. It will resurrect the dead for a steep price.')

As the PCs explore they fill in more and more of the map, like a standard dungeon except on a larger scale. Key locales are noted, new routes are found, obstacles are overcome, destinations are finally reached, resources are consumed. These settings work very well with rival forces (like you're establishing) since there is even room for both to strive for their goals without being in early or constant contact. The larger size-scale and slower time-scale of exploration also help mitigate the effects of PC spells and abilities, potentially making attrition more of a factor.

Interacting with the villain always great. Having the baddie taunt the PCs from a position of strength (or even showing up in person) is always dicey. Players have a tendency to ignore overwhelming odds against them or to pull out some scheme to unexpectedly alpha-strike the villain into oblivion. I would give him unassailable defenses for that encounter.

Obviously, the final battle takes place in the Coliseum as perhaps spectral dwarven ghosts watch solemnly from the stands.

 

[Eltab]

Labrynth-like mazes should be a skill challenge, not a map. Have the PCs make Dungeoneering checks, sometimes Perception or Nature checks. If they fail, they hit a dead-end or get into a small fight with a denizen or listen to you read a description of some ruined courtyard / important building. If they succeed, they find spoor of their quarry (footprints, horse droppings, last night's campsite). Of course you have to write up a number of vignettes ahead so you have something to describe.

Use IRL time-management so the players search and follow for an hour or so to build up anticipation.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Labrynth-like mazes should be a skill challenge, not a map.

5e doesn't have skill challenges. It does have group checks, though. So calling for a series of group checks might be a way to handle it.

It'd be a little arbitrary and blah, though...

 

[Oofta]

When I do things like this, I only have a general idea of what the mines look like with a general sketch.

I then have small scenes set up that I can plug in depending on which way they go. In other words, I run it much like any normal adventure. I put in the details I need (what can they encounter, fun scenes they're likely to run across) while glossing over the details.

As far as navigating, they don't need to care that they just went down tunnel 42B, but it might be important that someone made a history check to remember how the dwarves numbered their tunnels.

The thing with navigating the back tunnels and skill checks and challenges is that there has to be consequences. You know you want a final confrontation, so what happens if they do amazingly well at overcoming your obstacle of navigating the back tunnel? What if they totally flub it?

A large part of the game is a process of setting up obstacles and overcoming those obstacles. If overcoming or failing to overcome those obstacles has no consequence then it can become part of the narration of the game and there is no reason to go into details.

For example if they're going the back tunnels there may be unstable sections of the cave. If they bypass the section by going around it takes more time. If they move carefully but fail they may take damage from a rock slide, or need to make additional checks to avoid being trapped (which will take even more time to dig out).

I also like to throw some social interaction into the game, even in a dungeon. Maybe there's a shadowy figure (a goblin) that is willing to help the group get rid of these intruders that have invaded their home. If they agree the goblins help but potentially betray them at a key point, if they refuse the goblins harass them or give away their position to the gnolls.

The important point is to gloss over stuff that doesn't matter, give players enough information to make decisions, give them control over their choices and have their decisions make an impact.

 

[Ovinomancer]

5e doesn't have skill challenges. It does have group checks, though. So calling for a series of group checks might be a way to handle it.

It'd be a little arbitrary and blah, though...

As you're fond of saying, 5e does have DM Empowerment, and that can sound an awful lot like 'skill challenges' if the DM wants it to.