D&D 5E Charisma- Good ability ... or OMNIVOROUS DESTROYER OF D&D?

[MechaTarrasque]

Doesn't that risk overcooking Wisdom, thus simply moving the issue from one stat to another?

If Charisma is too powerful (open to debate on this) and Intelligence is too weak (yeah, I can see this one), the simple solution would be to find some thing(s) that would make sense to move from Cha to Int. One that leaps to mind is that not all persuasion necessarily comes from Charisma - one of Bluff or Diplomacy, for example, could easily be refluffed (rebluffed?) to go under Intelligence based on how erudite and well-spoken you are. And as someone else noted, moving one of Warlock or Sorcerer to being an Int-based class would also be easy.

Lan-"meanwhile, in 1e I'm trying to find things to move into Charisma to make it more relevant"-efan

That is a good point, but I think ranger is the most logic int caster who isn't an int caster (all that time studying prey, figuring out traps and weaknesses), so if we moved the ranger into int casters, then that would open up a spot in wisdom for sorcerer. If we buy into "psionics aren't magic", then we end up with (more or less) 3 of each caster types per mental stat.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I tried to play a high Charisma character once. I found it very stressful. Now I dump charisma, and I dump in hard on every character I ever make. Someone else can be the party face.

Since I never use it i voted that it works fine as it is.

 

[Shiroiken]

Charisma is generally fine (I take issue with Persuasion and Deceit being separate skills), but do have a problem with the casters. Moving Warlock to Int makes a load of sense, other than killing the semi-sacred cow. Paladin actually makes more sense as Charisma casters than Wisdom, because they don't know what they're talking about, just talking out their @$$.

As for saves... I'd personally want a complete re-work of the saves for 5.5/6E. Rather than having good and bad saves, make all saves useful, preventing ANY ability from being a real dump-stat.

 

[Guest 6801328]

And Warlocks are those people that everyone is like-
"How did you agree to play him?"
"As an awesome and mysterious servant of great powers. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!"

"And how did you play him?"
"Eldritch blast! Pew pew pew!"

I love this.

I skipped Editions 3 and 4, and when I came back during the D&D Next discussions I was shocked to learn, via forum posters, that this spell called Eldritich Blast "defines" the Warlock.

I asked, "What's that? Like...you throw a huge party and all sorts of eldritch beings show up and burn down the house?"

"No. It's a Cantrip. It's like, well, Fire Bolt, except that it is Eldritch."

"Are you $%#^ing me?" I asked? The concept is pact with supernatural, dangerous powers, and the implementation is...a re-fluffed blast spell?

But, no, everybody seemed to feel that Eldritch Blast == Warlock.

Pathetic.

 

[Yaarel]

I feel like both Wisdom and Charisma are poorly defined. Wisdom is sensory perception, willpower, and empathy? Like, why are those all the same thing?

Charisma used to be synonymous with Comeliness but is now morphing into a mix of confidence and force of personality. (So what's Wisdom's willpower then?) Also you charm a room of strangers and resists demonic possession with the same stat. Huh? I'd think that almost all adventurers are confident and have a forceful personality, just sort of as a consequence of being high level.

Also, lots of people seem to think that Charisma is just a measure of extroversion.

If I were re-inventing the Stats I'd probably split out, pair down, and focus the conception of each Stat by borrowing labels from some of the most important skills and the 3E Save categories, like this:

Athletics
Reflexes
Fortitude
Reason (Wizard)
Willpower (Warlock)
Insight (Cleric, Paladin, Sorcerer)
Perception
Charisma (Bards)

But I would clarify some rules too, like an Intimidation check can be made with any stat. Just being a 10th level anything can be scary; so whatever you're good at, scare people with it. I'd also make it clear that Charisma checks to make people like you is just about making a good impression while you're focused on the person; it's a magnetic personality thing. The effect fades as soon as you turn away. Real loyalty is earned.

Also I think the game lost something when we lost the Reaction Table that determined whether monsters were hostile, neutral, or friendly. It should be harder to change the results of that table than a pretty smile and a wink.

Both saves and skills are the evidence of what actually matters mechanically.



Four Ability Scores

• Athletics (Reflex, Jump, Climb, Balance, Melee Weapons)
• Size (Fortitude, Hit Points, Carrying Capacity, Reach, Heavy Weapons)
• Awareness (Perception, Knowledge, Cautious Precision, Stealth, Sharpshooter Weapons)
• Charisma (Will, Empathy, Influence, Social Skills)

 

[Yaarel]

I feel Intimidation necessarily requires Charisma. At the same time, in order to Intimidate a creature, there must be a convincing threat. High Strength is one of the things that satisfies the requirement of a real threat. The ability to turn someone into a toad also satisfies. The ability to destroy someones finances. And so on. This has to be evident *before* an Intimidation check is possible.

 

[Yardiff]

Not that it matters but you missed an early edition use for charisma, the cleric turned undead using charisma.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Not that it matters but you missed an early edition use for charisma, the cleric turned undead using charisma.

Honestly I'd love to see more "slightly MAD" quirks like this. Classes should have a few things that depend on an off-stat.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

I feel like both Wisdom and Charisma are poorly defined.

Agreed. I like the FFG Star Wars game idea of having paired statistics, with one representing raw power and resources and the other representing ability to manipulate the world around you.

WIS is your social toughness, your ability to resist peer pressure, your ability to keep operating despite stress and distraction.
CHA is your social skill, your ability to read people and social situations, your ability to manipulate those people and situations.

I think part of the reason for CHA being a dump stat is that few games play out the consequences. A CHA 8 character should be somewhat clueless socially. They miss clues, have poor manners, are uncomfortable in social gatherings, blurt out the wrong things, get politeness wrong, are oblivious to body language.

A low-CHA character is poor at leadership and deception and negotiation because they are, basically, poor at reading people.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Move paladins to wis and bards to int spellcasting wise.