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D&D 5E Xanathar's "War Magic" too strong for multiclassing?

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
So let's start with a few baseline assumptions.
1. You are having at most 3 combat encounters per day. (the guideline 6-8 just doesn't happen in many peoples campaigns). Having 4 rages instead of 3 will help once in a blue moon but not on the average adventuring day in this setup.
If you go into a game knowing the game will only have 3 encounters per LR, shouldn't you be playing a caster anyway? That's like optimization 101. :) I know one of my current DMs rarely does more than 3 encounters a day, which is why I play a gish with smite options.

Aren't those basically the best dips you can take in the game?
Paladin 2 and Cleric 1 would probably be the others. Sorcerer 1 and 3 are also solid.

If War Wizard simply adds another option to the already strong list of dip candidates, what exactly is the problem?
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Aside from the 3 combat/day assumption being fairly arbitrary (I agree 6-8 isn't common, but 4/day isn't uncommon either), your hitpoint calculation is off. The barbarian, assuming healing, has 68 hp per encounter. The wizard multi with false life has ~61, but at 2nd level can only maintain that for 3 fights (I'm starting to see that 3/day may not have been as arbitrary as I assumed).

Further, there's the fact that your wizard multi is burning all of their spell slots to achieve near parity in combat effective hp as the straight barbarian, meaning they're losing any flexibility from the multi which you, above, stressed as a benefit. If they don't, then the 13 less hp (26 effective) is a noticeable drop in staying power. The +2 AC vs one attack ability looks interesting, but barbarians are low AC characters to begin with (looking at around a 15-16 with non-magic medium armor) and often use reckless attack to up damage (especially with GWM) and at that point the AC boost doesn't look very helpful (somewhat, but not gamebreaking or even close).

The save bonus is very nice, though, that's granted. But that's about all you're really picking up with this multi, and the need to have INT 13 to do it, the cost is pretty high for that one benefit. It's a good one, yes, but not near gamebreakingly good.

1. The campaigns I've been playing in recently usually have 1-2 combats per day. Maybe 3 tops. 4 or more is exceptionally rare. If you have different experiences there then that is fine. I'm sure we all do.

2. Barbarians end up 1 AC behind a fighter.

I guess the Hp thing depends right?
Fight 1 the pure barbarian start with about 6.5 more effective hp. As long as the temp hp gets taken off then both barbarians will have the same effective hp in fight 2. Then a short rest the pure barbarian will have about 6.5 more effective hp assuming hit dice were enough to recover the actual damage taken. In a seriously hard day the False life barbarian will end up with more hp in the later fights as the day progresses because he has more total resources to put toward hp. Draw from that info whatever conclusions you can.

4. Reckless attack is better to use the higher base AC you have and the AC boost still gives respectable AC when using it and great weapon master.

5. The save bonus is the big thing and I think you all are severly undervaluing it.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
If you go into a game knowing the game will only have 3 encounters per LR, shouldn't you be playing a caster anyway? That's like optimization 101. :) I know one of my current DMs rarely does more than 3 encounters a day, which is why I play a gish with smite options.


Paladin 2 and Cleric 1 would probably be the others. Sorcerer 1 and 3 are also solid.

If War Wizard simply adds another option to the already strong list of dip candidates, what exactly is the problem?

Maybe there isn't one. Thus why this thread ended with a ?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
If you go into a game knowing the game will only have 3 encounters per LR, shouldn't you be playing a caster anyway? That's like optimization 101. :) I know one of my current DMs rarely does more than 3 encounters a day, which is why I play a gish with smite options.


Paladin 2 and Cleric 1 would probably be the others. Sorcerer 1 and 3 are also solid.

If War Wizard simply adds another option to the already strong list of dip candidates, what exactly is the problem?

As far as the play a caster thing. Barb is a caster. he casts rage about 3 times per day :p
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
I think the biggest dipper will be the mystic (when it is finally official). I could see the "concentrate on this discipline" effects starting before using arcane deflection, and then making a melee attack. Plus the precognitive discipline gives you advantage on initiative so there should be no issue in using that and tactical wit at the same time.....

I haven't looked at the mystic recently, and it might very well change significantly before we see the end result, but I recall there being a significant number of good abilities available to them that use their reaction. As such, it may not be a great option (since this will simply be one more option competing for that one reaction per round, at the cost of two mystic levels).

In general, while I think it's certainly a desirable ability, the cost of a reaction makes it something that is good but not great. It isn't as though you get to make the decision after the entire round is done. An enemy could provoke an OA and then, later in the round you get attacked (or forced to make a save). Do you give up the free attack just in case you need to use this?

Additionally, it's only so-so for an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster IMO. While it'd certainly be nice to have, it competes with Shield which is much stronger option against attacks (albeit, a more limited resource).
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
1. The campaigns I've been playing in recently usually have 1-2 combats per day. Maybe 3 tops. 4 or more is exceptionally rare. If you have different experiences there then that is fine. I'm sure we all do.

2. Barbarians end up 1 AC behind a fighter.

I guess the Hp thing depends right?
Fight 1 the pure barbarian start with about 6.5 more effective hp. As long as the temp hp gets taken off then both barbarians will have the same effective hp in fight 2. Then a short rest the pure barbarian will have about 6.5 more effective hp assuming hit dice were enough to recover the actual damage taken. In a seriously hard day the False life barbarian will end up with more hp in the later fights as the day progresses because he has more total resources to put toward hp. Draw from that info whatever conclusions you can.

4. Reckless attack is better to use the higher base AC you have and the AC boost still gives respectable AC when using it and great weapon master.

5. The save bonus is the big thing and I think you all are severly undervaluing it.

1. Yes, anecdotes are anecdotes, yours happens to completely support your proposal, which makes it suspect as useful.

2. Um... no? Your barbarian is light on dex, with at most a +1, given they're prioritizing STR, CON, INT, then DEX in that order. Even rolled sets won't get you a +2 DEX. At 7th, you could assume the barbarian has half-plate (15_1=16) vs the fighter's full plate (18). This holds for lower levels as well (and actually favors the fighter for most armor combos). So the +2 reaction use really just puts the barbarian with a +1 DEX and half-plate equal to the fighter.

3. At 3 fights a day, the average fights are much harder, meaning a deeper hp well (14 points deeper while raging) takes on more importance. Further, you're ignoring the argument that this effort takes ALL of the wizard spell slots to reach the near parity in hp available per fight (and that you used four castings and not three for your end of day total, so it's not 4d6+16, it's 3d6+12 or an average of only slightly more total day hp, not many more). So ALL of the supposed flexibility in multi-classing is being used to recover parity on hp alone.

4. I don't see your point, here, as it's obvious that you would suffer less from reckless attack with a higher AC. However, given the barbarian is at a ~16 AC base, bumping that to 18 at 7th, where the average attack bonus is +8, doesn't make much difference in the odds of being hit(shift from ~88% at AC 16 to ~80% at AC 18). It's not that valuable.

5. No, i'm not devaluing it. This is clearly a very strong ability. It's just that the costs for getting it are pretty well balanced (loss of 2 levels primary abilities, delay in ASI, no gain in flexibility due to having to spend wizard abilities to shore up primary class and ability score losses, etc.). It's not strong enough on it's own to make the ability break multiclassing.

i do wish they had made the saving throw bonus equal to INT bonus. Having a +5 vice a +4 isn't huge, but the dip potential drastically reduces to clearly a bad choice.
 


BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
which one of those dips goes well with pigs in a blanket or corn chips? Daddy has two parties to go to this weekend! Send the recipe!

Hmm the fighter dip has a great surge of flavor, while the barb dip was a bit reckless in spices, the rogue dip might be gone when you turn your back, and the cost of the warlock dip might be to high.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
It's only a single attack/save so I don't think that is too powerful. The initiative bonus is nice but not overpowered in my opinion.

The signature of champions.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
3. Agreed on the loss of 6hp from class and an additional 7 from the con bonus. In perspective this would be the difference between 68 and 55 hp.

We're talking about Barbarian, this is bigger than it appears.

The Barb will be raging as often as possible, you're not looking at a difference of 13 HP you're realistically looking at a 26 HPs difference (especially with the bear totem and it's almost all encompassing resistance).

Taking into account False life can mitigate 12 (because raging) or so of that (it's 1d4+4). But you'll have to hope it carries into any given combat(1 hour duration). You'll have a hard time casting that in combat - there are just too many better options - or you're raging and can't.

All in all - this looks like a decent dip but there are enough tradeoffs to not make it over the top.
 

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