D&D 5E At my table: Hexblade removed, Pact of the Blade enhanced

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I'm sorry, but from my perspective this is just false. The warlock spell lists are a relatively minor consideration when it comes to balance between the Warlock patrons. Many forget that the spell lists allow the Warlock to choose those spells, but do not in fact automatically add them to spells known. Fiend Warlocks do not automatically get fireball. Additionally, you state that Fiend Patron is more powerful than the other two as if it is a fact. But I do not see it that way. Fiend Pact is better in direct combat to some extent, sure. But Archfey is more focused on battlefield control and escaping sticky situations, and the GOO Patron is a master of the mind and eventually gets you a humanoid meatshield.

If that is how you see things then you may need to adjust your perspective before you can evaluate the patrons. It seems like your are focusing on the wrong things and have misunderstood several features.

 

[ZickZak]

It was stated 5e isnt balanced like eg 4e was. Fireball, for example, is better than most of other 3rd level spells. Intentionally.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

If that is how you see things then you may need to adjust your perspective before you can evaluate the patrons. It seems like your are focusing on the wrong things and have misunderstood several features.

Oh? If that's so, then please enlighten and educate us with evidence that I seem to lack understanding. Patrons grant features at level 1, 6, 10, and 14. From my estimation each is balanced against the others in their own ways.

For example, at level 1.

GOO - Always on telepathy. Allows for being a universal translator, secret communication out in the open, and general subterfuge.
Fiend - Temp HP granted only when you personally have slain an enemy, so activated only when conditions are met.
Archfey - Area of effect charm or frighten. Short duration, but the only way at level 1 (minus spells from XGtE) to produce such effects. Recharges on short rest.

From my perspective, each of those abilities is fairly balanced against one another.

Level 6
GOO - Force and enemy to make an attack at disadvantage, and if miss then gain advantage against them.
Fiend - Add d10 to a save or ability check.
Archfey - reaction activated teleport and invisibility.

Each recharges on a short rest. All seem balanced against one another to change the outcome of a single action at least.

Level 10
GOO - Immunity to thought reading, resistance to Psychic, and damages those that attempt psychic damage.
Fiend - Ability to choose a resistance that lasts until changed.
Archfey - Immune to charm, and ability to countercharm those that attempt it.

Here Fiend may hedge out the others since their resistance is more adaptive. But it requires forethought and planning to use effectively. Also, the other abilities allow some sort of offensive ability in addition to their resistance/immunity, where the Fiend gains only defensive capacity. This seems to balance out.

Level 14
GOO - Permanent humanoid thrall until they are killed or you find someone better.
Fiend - Remove an enemy from the field for one round and deal massive damage. Recharge only on long rest.
Archfey - Ability to remove an enemy from the field for effectively a full combat (1 minute) and recharges on a short rest.

Please... tell me how I am misunderstanding the ways that the Patrons are imbalanced against one another.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Oh? If that's so, then please enlighten and educate us with evidence that I seem to lack understanding. Patrons grant features at level 1, 6, 10, and 14. From my estimation each is balanced against the others in their own ways.

For example, at level 1.

GOO - Always on telepathy. Allows for being a universal translator, secret communication out in the open, and general subterfuge.
Fiend - Temp HP granted only when you personally have slain an enemy, so activated only when conditions are met.
Archfey - Area of effect charm or frighten. Short duration, but the only way at level 1 (minus spells from XGtE) to produce such effects. Recharges on short rest.

From my perspective, each of those abilities is fairly balanced against one another.

Level 6
GOO - Force and enemy to make an attack at disadvantage, and if miss then gain advantage against them.
Fiend - Add d10 to a save or ability check.
Archfey - reaction activated teleport and invisibility.

Each recharges on a short rest. All seem balanced against one another to change the outcome of a single action at least.

Level 10
GOO - Immunity to thought reading, resistance to Psychic, and damages those that attempt psychic damage.
Fiend - Ability to choose a resistance that lasts until changed.
Archfey - Immune to charm, and ability to countercharm those that attempt it.

Here Fiend may hedge out the others since their resistance is more adaptive. But it requires forethought and planning to use effectively. Also, the other abilities allow some sort of offensive ability in addition to their resistance/immunity, where the Fiend gains only defensive capacity. This seems to balance out.

Level 14
GOO - Permanent humanoid thrall until they are killed or you find someone better.
Fiend - Remove an enemy from the field for one round and deal massive damage. Recharge only on long rest.
Archfey - Ability to remove an enemy from the field for effectively a full combat (1 minute) and recharges on a short rest.

Please... tell me how I am misunderstanding the ways that the Patrons are imbalanced against one another.

For starters, GOO doesn't give you a meatshield at lvl 14. Look up what the "charmed" condition actually does.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

For starters, GOO doesn't give you a meatshield at lvl 14. Look up what the "charmed" condition actually does.

Really? You are hung up on that? Yes, I know what the Charmed condition confers.

-Charmed
• A charmed creature can't attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects.
• The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.

Given the level at which this ability is conferred, one would also assume that the Thrall views you as a friend. Yes, the thrall will not necessarily act outside of its normal behavior (though you could use role playing to convince them to) nor with a thrall automatically give their life for you. But if you choose a thrall well, it is also reasonable to assume that you can find a thrall that at the very least is willing to fight for you and protect you. I mean think about adventuring parties! Player characters fight for each other and protect one another, and so there is little reason to believe that a well chosen thrall would not do so as well. Additionally, since Charisma is already your main stat and you get advantage on Charisma checks to influence their behavior, they are extremely likely to acquiesce to your requests. Yes, this ability is limited by DM fiat and outside of placing the Charmed condition upon the person, it is vague on how the thrall acts. However, because NOTHING removes the charm effect outside of remove curse or willfully ending it yourself, you can beat the thrall, you can mistreat them, you can abuse them, and they will never get another save to end the effect. They will always be charmed and always see you as a friend and ally.

Additionally, even without considering this as a combat ability that grants you an ally willing to fight for you (but it could), it grants you an opportunity to gain a powerful ally. If you can kidnap someone of wealth or influence, you can suddenly become a puppeteer acting in the background. Make the right person a thrall, and you could suddenly control an army by convincing this person to abdicate control to you.

So yea, saying meatshield was a reductive and perhaps not completely accurate description. It could grant you a meatshield, and so much more.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Really? You are hung up on that? Yes, I know what the Charmed condition confers.

-Charmed
• A charmed creature can't attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects.
• The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.

Given the level at which this ability is conferred, one would also assume that the Thrall views you as a friend. Yes, the thrall will not necessarily act outside of its normal behavior (though you could use role playing to convince them to) nor with a thrall automatically give their life for you. But if you choose a thrall well, it is also reasonable to assume that you can find a thrall that at the very least is willing to fight for you and protect you. I mean think about adventuring parties! Player characters fight for each other and protect one another, and so there is little reason to believe that a well chosen thrall would not do so as well. Additionally, since Charisma is already your main stat and you get advantage on Charisma checks to influence their behavior, they are extremely likely to acquiesce to your requests. Yes, this ability is limited by DM fiat and outside of placing the Charmed condition upon the person, it is vague on how the thrall acts. However, because NOTHING removes the charm effect outside of remove curse or willfully ending it yourself, you can beat the thrall, you can mistreat them, you can abuse them, and they will never get another save to end the effect. They will always be charmed and always see you as a friend and ally.

Additionally, even without considering this as a combat ability that grants you an ally willing to fight for you (but it could), it grants you an opportunity to gain a powerful ally. If you can kidnap someone of wealth or influence, you can suddenly become a puppeteer acting in the background. Make the right person a thrall, and you could suddenly control an army by convincing this person to abdicate control to you.

So yea, saying meatshield was a reductive and perhaps not completely accurate description. It could grant you a meatshield, and so much more.

Again, look up what "charmed" actually does. Note the absence of words like "friend" and "ally" in the rules text.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Again, look up what "charmed" actually does. Note the absence of words like "friend" and "ally" in the rules text.

1) Explain to me logically how you can explain getting advantage on all charisma based checks, even under conditions (such as being hostile or actively attacking a creature) if they don't perceive your actions with some kind of positive spin.

2) Even if not a friend, you have unlimited telepathic access to this individual. From a continent away, you can just constantly chant into this person's head until they go crazy and kill themselves or give in and do what you want them to.

3) As I previously mentioned, this ability is purposely vague and requires DM fiat. Its power will vary based on the DM style. Many rules are written in 5e are purposely vague to allow the DM greater leeway for adjudication, especially with powers such as Create Thrall which have greater potential role play value than potential combat effectiveness. If you are a DM that adheres super strictly to RAW, then this power will be more impotent than a DM that prioritizes RAI or RAF.

4) Even if I give you that this specific ability may be of less value than the other 2 Patrons (which I do not believe), you have done nothing to provide any evidence in support of your argument that the Fiend Patron is superior to the other two. All you have done is make vague comments that Fiend is better, and insinuate that I am missing something or do not understand the rules in a manner that is very condescending.

EDIT: Added point #2.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

1) Explain to me logically how you can explain getting advantage on all charisma based checks, even under conditions (such as being hostile or actively attacking a creature) if they don't perceive your actions with some kind of positive spin.

2) Even if not a friend, you have unlimited telepathic access to this individual. From a continent away, you can just constantly chant into this person's head until they go crazy and kill themselves or give in and do what you want them to.

3) As I previously mentioned, this ability is purposely vague and requires DM fiat. Its power will vary based on the DM style. Many rules are written in 5e are purposely vague to allow the DM greater leeway for adjudication, especially with powers such as Create Thrall which have greater potential role play value than potential combat effectiveness. If you are a DM that adheres super strictly to RAW, then this power will be more impotent than a DM that prioritizes RAI or RAF.

4) Even if I give you that this specific ability may be of less value than the other 2 Patrons (which I do not believe), you have done nothing to provide any evidence in support of your argument that the Fiend Patron is superior to the other two. All you have done is make vague comments that Fiend is better, and insinuate that I am missing something or do not understand the rules in a manner that is very condescending.

EDIT: Added point #2.

Having advantage on charisma checks doesn't let you convince the "thrall" to do anything you couldn't get a random non-charmed individual to do with a sufficiently good roll, it just makes the good roll a bit more likely to happen.

 

[Aldarc]

I've removed Hexblade from the list of possible Warlock patrons at my table.

I've enhanced Pact of the Blade as follows:

At 3rd level, when you choose Pact of the Blade, you gain proficiency in medium armor, shields, and all weapons.
At 6th level, you gain the Extra Attack feature.

I feel like those two changes are all a melee warlock needs. The Charisma to hit and damage replacement of the Hexblade at level 1 along with the curse and all the proficiencies seems like overcompensation for a crappy original Pact of the Blade in the PHB.

I would have also included as baseline the ability to use your Pact Blade as a focus.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Having advantage on charisma checks doesn't let you convince the "thrall" to do anything you couldn't get a random non-charmed individual to do with a sufficiently good roll, it just makes the good roll a bit more likely to happen.

Thrall
noun

1. a person who is in bondage; slave.
2. a person who is morally or mentally enslaved by some power, influence, or the like:

He was the thrall of morbid fantasies.

3. slavery; thralldom.

Why would they call this "Create Thrall" if what it actually did was "Create person more likely to listen to you and DEFINITELY can't attack you but also for some reason can talk to telepathically from any distance, but this communication is in no way a command to be followed so much as a strongly worded suggestion"?

This is a situation where Rules As Intended (RAI) or Rules as Fun (RAF) overrides Rules as Written (RAW).

Also, you continue to not provide ANY argument to support your original claim.