D&D 5E Setting Party level vs an Ancient Red Dragon

[machineelf]

8th, tops.

If an 8th level party defeats an ancient red dragon, then the DM is not running it right.

 

[Sunseeker]

If an 8th level party defeats an ancient red dragon, then the DM is not running it right.

Maybe. As written, I don't like any of the dragons in 5E. They have low output, rely too heavily on their breath weapons and are rather squishy. Larger versions do not have significantly higher output, nor higher defenses and their lair actions are fairly tame. Used to be that adult or higher dragons could waste a single target in a round, or at least tear them a new face-hole. Above 8th level, player defenses are simply too high for the dragon to deal any real lasting damage.

 

[CapnZapp]

If an 8th level party defeats an ancient red dragon, then the DM is not running it right.

Calling out "blame it on the DM" bullcrap.

Have you even once considered that if the players absolutely trash the CR system, it might be that it is the CR system that is trash...?

 

[machineelf]

Calling out "blame it on the DM" bullcrap.

Have you even once considered that if the players absolutely trash the CR system, it might be that it is the CR system that is trash...?

Have I even once? A bit dramatic, eh?

You're talking about two slightly different but related questions here: How informative and accurate the CR system is, and how much variance to an encounter challenge is due to the DM's adjudication of it.

With regard to the first question, the more complicated a system gets, the less dependable a rating like a CR will be. That's not a bad thing; at least, it's not avoidable and it is due to something else that is good. It means that a system is not utterly simple, and instead has a lot of variable parts that become harder to quantify. That leads to a fun game with a lot of options.

So for example, when the group is 1st level and they fight goblins, and neither the monsters nor the PCs have a lot of options and powers and tricks, it is easier to determine a challenge rating. There are fewer variables. But once the PCs and the monsters both get many more options in terms of abilities and spells and tactics, then the challenge rating becomes harder to quantify. It depends more and more on which tactics are taken and which tools (spells and abilities) are used. The CR isn't "crap;" but it does get less dependable as the levels increase. There really is no way around that, and that's why the CR should be viewed as a starting point only.

That's the relation to the next question, of how much the challenge rating is affected by the DM's adjudication.

It can be very easy for one DM to make a certain monster (let's say a dragon) fairly weak and easy to defeat, whereas another DM can make the same monster much more deadly. For example, let's say the first DM has the dragon stand in one spot in melee range of a group full of fighters, whereas the other DM has the dragon attack from afar and keep its distance until its breath weapon recharges.

The dragon could do either things, but of course a smart dragon would keep its distance in those situations.

So yes. it does often come down to the DM's skill and experience. It also comes down to how soft a DM wants to be toward their PCs. Some newer DMs may feel worried about possibly killing their PCs, whereas a DM with more experience with the 5th edition ruleset knows that the PCs have a lot of tools at their disposal at higher levels, and can take a lot more of a challenge. Additionally, with more familiarity with various monster stats, a DM can determine whether the CR for a particular monster plays lower or higher than advertised.

 

[Ancalagon]

Well

The combo of wish (to get the bard) and forcecage (a rather broken spell) was a killer...

Some thoughts:

1: don't beat yourself up. EVERY DM has had a big bad boss defeated soundly by the PCs. It just happens

2: Did the PCs design the bard or did you? Kind of convenient for them that he could counterspell and had forcecage...

3: The lead up to the fight was *awesome*. Great stuff

4: I think the cure wound wouldn't have helped the bard simulacrum but I may be wrong. (these are the oversights GMs do all the time...)

5: I agree that the forcecage would have been too small to capture a dragon that side, but I can't blame you for ruling the way you did.

6: The one ruling that does perplex me is people attacking the dragon (and vice versa) through the cage... how did that work?


I've never used B/X so I can't really comment on that, but I do understand the desire for a less... fiddly system (although I think 5e isn't too bad). About that:

A: A lot of the complexity comes from the multiple spells available. If you want a lower magic system, I strongly recommend warhammer frpg 2nd edition

B: Stay away from 3.X edition and Pathfinder! :O

 

[Stalker0]

hehe my party killed Asmodeus in one round! So yeah we all have our DM moments that didn't turn out like we hoped

 

[Luz]

Late to the party here. It sounds like your group was well prepared and had a lot of resources, so there is only so much one dragon (or DM) can do against that if you allow the forcecage to work on a gargantuan dragon (I wouldn't). I'm curious to know what other spells the dragon had besides the chain lightning it used while in the forcecage). Did it not have an escape spell like misty step or dimension door]? Even something like polymorph to transform into a flea to escape the cage should work. Other than that, there isn't much you could have done in those circumstances.

There is an ancient red dragon's lair in Quests of Doom from Frog God Games, I think it's called Emeralds of High Fang by Ed Greenwood. The place is huge, befitting the dragon's size, and allows it to use hit and run strategies as well as take full advantage of its natural 120-ft. darkvision. When this is paired with its 90-ft breath weapon (against the party's 60-ft darkvision), it can make all the difference between an easy fight and a deadly one.

Finally, Fires of Iskh is an excellent one-shot adventure that uses an ancient red dragon. Worth checking out!

 

[Oofta]

I've been busy and didn't respond before, but I do have to say that the party was given every possible advantage and then some. So [MENTION=467]Reynard[/MENTION], I wanted to give some feedback ... I don't think the system is necessarily broken, but you bent too far backwards to "help" the party. It happens to all DMs, I know it's happened to me more than once (and probably will again) and it has very little to do with 5E. Solos are never easy to run, have never worked very well and the CR guidelines aren't going to be much help when you gave them this much of an advantage and an additional 20th level character.

Having said all that, I'm trying to give some helpful advice. But the big question is: did the players have fun? If they did, then the encounter was a success. Sometimes the players stomp on your encounters, it's part of the game.

wish to create a simulacrum of a 20th level bard

Did they have access to a 20th level bard for the 12 hours it takes to cast the spell? Also, note the part of the rules of Simulacrum where it gives the rules for repairing it. Specific beats general in this game and if there's a specific rule that says "this is how you restore HP to this creature" that overrides the general rules on magical healing.

While preparing the 24 hour ritual for HALLOW spell cast upon the surface exterior of the Primordial Ruins, Mr. Umber, now without his helmet, has returned from the Winter Court to assist the Marchguard with battling Zaskettr.

Queen of Winter has been playing a long game against Zaskettr. She has failed because of various flaws in her logic and a fundamental understanding of humanity. She has changed her strategy to involve the Marchguard. She also wants someone to willingly submit to her, under the following restrictions:
If the plan goes wrong, Umber is to take the lance and teleport back to the winter court
if he is disloyal, the lance returns on its own.
Umber feels a good deal different, more connected to the land.
Everyone gets into position, Dray shuts off the power and jumps through the portal to Bytopia, fleeing ahead of the dragon

After 35 minutes of waiting, Zaskettr shows up and the party roles initiative
Everyone quaffs their potions of fire resistance.
Heat distortion forms in the air 100ft above the ruins, and the space tears open for the dragon to floy through

So this sounds like they effectively had a surprise round. Why? It seems like it could have been the other way around - Z knew exactly when the rift would open up, the players did not.

ROUND 1
Kallista casts Stoneskin on Fah. Flanky holds an action.
Klog flies up about 80 feet towards the dragon
Bard the bard simulacrum hides in the bush and readies an action to cast a spell--FORCE CAGE--when the dragon enters the battle arena.
Genevieve casts GUIDANCE on Mr. Umber to add a d4 to an ability check of choice, then casts a SPIRITUAL WEAPON. (Hudson recommends that change to a BLESS which targets multiple party members under the same concentration restriction)
RETCON Genevieve casts BLESS and foregoes the spiritual weapon this round.
Nud SUMMONS 8 pixies, who have invisibility.
Mr. Umber casts MIRROR IMAGE and taunts Zaskettr
Arabelle uses bonus action to activate psionics to grant herslef a fly speed and increased AC. She then takes out her bow and fires at disadvantage at Zaskettr, missing twice. For her hasted action she hits, dealing 6 da

I'm confused. The rift opened up 100 feet away ... and the dragon didn't come through? Oh, and dragons have blindsight so I would rule that it could see the pixies. The bard could not have taken the hide action and readied an action on the same round (unless he could hide as a bonus action?). Not sure it really matters, he could have said he hid earlier. Is this an elven bard that can hide in natural surroundings?

ROUND 2
Kallista moves back away from Zaskettr. She activates her CUBE OF FORCE on the setting that does not allow living matter cannot pass through, in a 15ft cube.
Flanky waits outside the hallowed ground
Pixie 7 & 8 cast detect thoughts on Mr. Umber to see what the winter queen looks like
Pixies 1 through 6 are going to fly ten feet apart in formation towards the dragon. Nud makes a disadvantaged Insight role. Pixies 7 & 8 don't think they like the Winter Queen.
Klog taunts the dragon, move up 20 ft to match it's elevation.
Bard casts Glibness on himself and moves into position.
Genevieve attacks with her CROSSGBOW and hits for 9 damage
Nud shifts position slightly and holds an action to cast CALL LIGHTNING 4TH LEVEL if dragon comes within 120 feet.
Sir Umber holds an action to HEX the dragon should it move within 90 feet of Umber.
Arabelle activates another psychic ability as a bonus action, flies up to be within melee range as it passes and draws her Glaive.
Zaskettr flies up to be within range of Arabelle and readies his flame breath. She uses her REACTION action to attack it with her Glaive, using her special ability SENTINEL ability to reduce it's speed to 0 and drops it to the ground. She deals 22 damage with the Glaive. Zasketter falls to the ground, 30 feet forward, crashing into a tree.
It lands within range of Nud who deals 19 damage to Zaskettr with the CALL LIGHTNING spell at 4th level!
Zaskettr retaliates with his breath weapon! He spews fire on Fah, Umber, Nud, and Sister Genevieve, as well as the bard. Base damage on the breath weapon was 90 damage, but everyone made their save and had Resistance to Fire up, except Genevieve who took 45 damage. Genevieve loses her concentration on the BLESS spell and Nud loses concentration on his summoned pixies.
Leon climbs up a tree to get line of sight, then takes another shot at the prone dragon and hits for 26 damage
Fah rushes up to the prone dragon and swings his dragonslayer sword at it, hitting for 26 and again for 19, then uses ACTION SURGE to attack twice more with advantage, dealing 25 and 17 damage respectively. 87 total damage across 4 actions.
Zaskettr takes one of his LEGENDARY ACTIONS to beat its wings (WING BUFFETING) and forces Fah to make a Dex save. Fah is knocked prone and takes 8 points of damage.

Whole lot of confusion here again. Z's breath weapon is a 90 foot cone. How did we get to round 2 without him blasting the party and flying away? Why would he ready a breath weapon when it's a 90 foot cone? In addtion, the goal of the dragon would be to stay away from the mortal with the weapon that has trip attack potential.

Last, but not least if he used his wing buffet it should also have flown 40 ft away

ROUND 3
Kallista moved behind the dragon and casts MAGIC MISSILE from her Wand, dealing 13 damage.
Flanky does nothing
Zaskettr takes a LEGENDARY ACTION to lash FAH with it's TAIL, doing a critical, but that gets replaced by Kallista with a 5 as a reaction, with the PORTENT power.
Klog flies above Zaskettr but can't get within range to attack.
Bard casts FORCE CAGE around Zaskettr, trapping him in an invisible cage. Spells can go through it. The only way to escape is to teleport out, it can't be broken or dispelled. There is no saving throw. The Bard then uses a bonus action to grant D12 inspiration to Fah.
Sister Genevieve casts SACRED FLAME but the dragon resists. She then summons her SPIRITUAL WEAPON Hammer at 4th level. She attacks at disadvantage and misses.
Nud casts MASS CURE WOUNDS on all party members in range, including the Bard, Klog, Nud, Genevieve, and Umber, the last of whom gets filled to full HP.
Sir Umber casts EXPEDITIOUS RETREAT and uses the DASH action to move forward to plunge his weapon into Zaskettr, twice, but misses both times.
Arabelle flies down and drops to the ground at the cage, hurling a flurry of blows at advantage, dealing 26 damage with one attack, missing with another, and then hitting for 22 on the hasted action and punching it for 11 damage, and a stunning blow (DC 16)
Zaskettr fails to reload it's Breath Weapon at the beginning of its turn, and does not have enough Legendary Actions to do something else. It casts Chain Lightning, but Bard uses his reaction to counter Chain Lightning.
[[Bards are the best counterspellers in D&D 5E]]
Zaskettr can't move, can't teleport, and is more or less stuck.
Leon takes a shot at the caged dragon, but misses.
Fah takes a swipe but misses.
Zaskettr takes a LEGENDARY ACTION to do a WING BUFFET to everyone with 15 foot area--Fah, Umber, and Arabelle.

As other people have posted, a gargantuan creature is at least 20X20. I'd have made it bigger based on it's role in the campaign.

In addition, attacking through the cage is problematic. You only have half an inch gap between bars. Z's breath weapon would pass through and possibly some spells but most weapons could not. Pull out a ruler sometime and look at how big a half inch really is, it's less than the width of a broom handle so any kind of axe/halberd/reach weapon would not fit. There is no way you could effectively swing so as to still hit. I guess you could poke a sword through and thrust but at best it would be at disadvantage to hit and the dragon would have to have vulnerable area right next to the wall of the cage.

Whether or not an arrow would fit through the 1/2 inch gap is debatable, but it no one had sharpshooter I probably would not have allowed it.

In addition, how big is the body of the dragon? Why can't Z just fold in his wings, curl up his tail and sit in the middle of the cage where no one could reach him? If he's too big to do that, then he was probably too big to fit in the cage in the first place (which I think he should be).

ROUND 4
Kallista casts ANIMATE OBJECT on a sample of adamantite fragments she tosses into the air. They hover in the air for a moment, then fly in formation like bees to attack Zaskettr inside the cage. She makes 8 attacks and deals 7 damage.
Zaskettr uses it's LEGENDARY ACTION to do a TAIL SWIPE at the animated objects, but Arabelle uses her Sentinel reaction to counterattack, as does Fah, who is also in Sentinel stance. Arabelle does 22 to Zaskettr, and Fah misses. He does 15 damage to the adamantite bees, but fails to kill them in one blow.
Klog moves up and stabs the dragonlance through the cage at Zaskettr. He uses his RAGE ability and uses RECKLESS ATTACK. He misses with his first attack, which was at advantage, and misses with his second attack as well.
Bard uses a bonus action to give a D12 inspiration die on attacks to Klog
Sister Genevieve casts BEACON OF HOPE, targeting the local party, to Bard, Nud, Umber, Herself, Fah, and Klog. Her SPIRITUAL WEAPON attacks the dragon at disadvantage and misses.
Nud casts THORN WALL inside the FORCE CAGE. Zaskettr uses one of his LEGENDARY ACTIONS to save against it and takes 15 damage.
Sir Umber gets advantage on melee attacks from Klog, and attacks with his slashing sword, dealing 11 damage and adding another 10 SMITE damage. He attacks and misses, but Kallista uses PORTENT to make the roll a hit, for 10 damage plus 15 SMITE damage.
Arabelle activates a psionic weapon attack to create additional damage, then attacks Zaskettr with a mean psychic attack.
This KOs Zaskettr and the party is able to get the lance into it to cause it to fall into torpor.
Kallista casts FABRICATE to bind the lance in the body of the dragon. During the casting time, of 10 minutes, the weather changes and an unnatural winter storm rushes in.
Out of the white gale walks the Snow Queen and a dozen of her elven warriors. She does a slow clap and offers to take the beast away.
Kallista denies her. Fah taunts her. She acts the patient matron and lets Kallista and Fah boast.

Your implementation of force cage is what really did this in. I also question how much damage could have been done in this period of time, even with all the free hits. It seems like Z should have had at least a couple more rounds with possible breath weapon recharging in there.

Solo monsters have always been tough to run, I almost never run a true solo unless they have tricks (illusions, traps, etc) up their sleeves. It don't think it's the fault of the edition.

But again, I'll ask. Did the players have fun? If the answer is yes, the game was a success. D&D is not a game of DM vs Player it's DMs telling a story with the help of the players. Sometimes it means the encounter is not a fair fight, it's just part of the game.

 

[CapnZapp]

Have I even once? A bit dramatic, eh?

You're talking about two slightly different but related questions here: How informative and accurate the CR system is, and how much variance to an encounter challenge is due to the DM's adjudication of it.

With regard to the first question, the more complicated a system gets, the less dependable a rating like a CR will be. That's not a bad thing; at least, it's not avoidable and it is due to something else that is good. It means that a system is not utterly simple, and instead has a lot of variable parts that become harder to quantify. That leads to a fun game with a lot of options.

So for example, when the group is 1st level and they fight goblins, and neither the monsters nor the PCs have a lot of options and powers and tricks, it is easier to determine a challenge rating. There are fewer variables. But once the PCs and the monsters both get many more options in terms of abilities and spells and tactics, then the challenge rating becomes harder to quantify. It depends more and more on which tactics are taken and which tools (spells and abilities) are used. The CR isn't "crap;" but it does get less dependable as the levels increase. There really is no way around that, and that's why the CR should be viewed as a starting point only.

That's the relation to the next question, of how much the challenge rating is affected by the DM's adjudication.

It can be very easy for one DM to make a certain monster (let's say a dragon) fairly weak and easy to defeat, whereas another DM can make the same monster much more deadly. For example, let's say the first DM has the dragon stand in one spot in melee range of a group full of fighters, whereas the other DM has the dragon attack from afar and keep its distance until its breath weapon recharges.

The dragon could do either things, but of course a smart dragon would keep its distance in those situations.

So yes. it does often come down to the DM's skill and experience. It also comes down to how soft a DM wants to be toward their PCs. Some newer DMs may feel worried about possibly killing their PCs, whereas a DM with more experience with the 5th edition ruleset knows that the PCs have a lot of tools at their disposal at higher levels, and can take a lot more of a challenge. Additionally, with more familiarity with various monster stats, a DM can determine whether the CR for a particular monster plays lower or higher than advertised.

Thank you for your post, but really, you're just saying the same thing again, only in polite language.

In other words, its not about "it does often come down to the DM's skill and experience. It also comes down to how soft a DM wants to be toward their PCs."

It's about this edition not properly equipping its monsters to handle its player characters.

Compared to previous editions* monsters are significantly nerfed with the loss of many nigh-essential abilities and features while core PHB player characters have never been given so many goodies (powers, tools, abilities) before.

The result is that no, it's not on the DM. It's on the system.

*) talking about modern times, the last twenty years or so. Or to be brutally honest, 3rd edition.

 

[CapnZapp]

Look at it in another way:

Have DMs changed these last twenty years? Have I and others suddenly gone soft, lost our edge?

Don't be absurd.

What has changed, however, is the challenge level of monster critters taken straight out of the MM.

That is why I react when people try to push over the blame on DMs.