D&D 5E Why Lichdom?

[Kobold Boots]

Just read the last page of this before typing so if this has been said, my apologies.

Why is it a choice. Just make a bunch of clones to confuse others and provide yourself a ready supply of henchmen, and still become a lich. When the players finally take down the last of the clones you wish to sacrifice, ... surprise ... in the meantime, you've got a really cool soccer team or the fantasy equivalent of the New England Patriots.. everyone hates em.

 

[batfishmobile]

As I understood Liches, they are trying to find the mystical knowledge of life and death, in order to become gods.

Time is not really the factor, in fact they give up life to become undead.

As for cloning, we have to assume that clones do not share consciousness with the original. Otherwise, why not just clone indefinitely, and be everywhere? A clone might share the memories of the original, but it is likely that a clone of the clone would not share the memories of the original as the original developed after creating the first clone.

At the point that the original and it's clones diverge, it is almost guaranteed that they will end up as different people. This could become a big problem, especially if they end up having different conclusions about the end goal.

If we assume, that these clones are kept in storage. Where they can't cause trouble, or even better, that they do not possess a soul or consciousness. They are kind of like phylacteries. But the magician would need some way to transport his soul, or body, to a location where he can possess his clone before death. It might be difficult to solve this problem. But at least he holds on to life.

To extend his life, is probably notthe end goal for a "clone-hopper". His end goal is probably something in life, not beyond death.

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[Sunseeker]

I think what it really comes down to is: Do you pursue arcane power so you can live forever? Or do you want to live forever so you can keep pursuing arcane power?

Wizards in the first category will clone themselves. Wizards in the second category will become liches.

(On the topic of killing yourself to transfer into a younger body: You wouldn't necessarily do that. You'd just create the younger body, and leave it on ice till you died of old age. Then your soul would transfer and you'd start over. Previous editions had you losing power and experience, but that doesn't happen in 5E.)

With cloning and younger bodies, there's always the TinyRick problem.

 

[Nytmare]

It's been a while since I've played the other editions, but was there a version of Clone where the clones weren't inert, non-sentient, magic, meat-puppets that just sat quietly and waited for the original to die before they sprang to life?

I'm confused by all the discussion regarding them with modern scientific (-ictioney) sensibilities.

 

[DeanP]

I wonder if some Liches came into existence because the spell Clone wasn't invented? For those that became liches when the clone spell was an option, chose lichdom because they see it as the first step towards transitioning to something divine. Vecna is the best example of this. Lichdom was the first step towards transmutation into a demi-god and eventually a deity.

 

[Kurotowa]

As for cloning, we have to assume that clones do not share consciousness with the original. Otherwise, why not just clone indefinitely, and be everywhere? A clone might share the memories of the original, but it is likely that a clone of the clone would not share the memories of the original as the original developed after creating the first clone.

At the point that the original and it's clones diverge, it is almost guaranteed that they will end up as different people. This could become a big problem, especially if they end up having different conclusions about the end goal.

Have you even read the 5e Clone spell? None of this applies. Barring act of DM the clone remains a mindless husk in suspected animation until the caster dies, at which point their soul transfers to the clone body and they return to life. It's basically a Contingency Raise Dead package in a single spell. Maybe in older editions some of what you describe was possible, but the 5e version is deliberately clear about the process.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Have you even read the 5e Clone spell? None of this applies. Barring act of DM the clone remains a mindless husk in suspected animation until the caster dies, at which point their soul transfers to the clone body and they return to life. It's basically a Contingency Raise Dead package in a single spell. Maybe in older editions some of what you describe was possible, but the 5e version is deliberately clear about the process.

The clone spell has always worked the way the 5e spell works. That said, there's been tons of homebrew around the topic that's been widely distributed and DMs are known for their imaginations. For the purposes of the thread being on the 5e forum though, I hear you.

 

[batfishmobile]

Have you even read the 5e Clone spell? None of this applies. Barring act of DM the clone remains a mindless husk in suspected animation until the caster dies, at which point their soul transfers to the clone body and they return to life. It's basically a Contingency Raise Dead package in a single spell. Maybe in older editions some of what you describe was possible, but the 5e version is deliberately clear about the process.

Most necromancers are NPCs, DMs aren't bound by game rules the way PCs are. Additionally, there are other ways to create a clone than the clone spell, such as the Wish spell.



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[Sunseeker]

Have you even read the 5e Clone spell? None of this applies. Barring act of DM the clone remains a mindless husk in suspected animation until the caster dies, at which point their soul transfers to the clone body and they return to life. It's basically a Contingency Raise Dead package in a single spell. Maybe in older editions some of what you describe was possible, but the 5e version is deliberately clear about the process.

I do think Clone (or any other spell) is a bad comparison to what the OP is talking about.

Lichdom has a generally agreed-upon process, but at least in 5E, there's no explicit ritual to do so and its not something the game intends for the players to be able to do within the existing rules. Clone, Wish, Simulacrum and the like are explicit spells, intended to be used by players of the appropriate levels.

So really if we're talking about "cloning" here we're talking about a process more comparable to lichdom, something unique and heavily under DM fiat for players to do within custom houserules.

 

[Zardnaar]

Clone might work if you create one age a few decades then die going back into your younger body.

In FR I believe the clone spell was invented during Netheril reign. A D&D one had a few drawbacks hence Manshoon creating stasis clone which more or less gave you multiple clones. It also backfired on him. DM got sick of him abusing it.

On Athas if you found a fruit of longevity you could create a simulacrum use it to be a Gardner and plant it. A year later you get a small crop of them plant those ones wash rinse repeat until you get enough. I did that to cast wish spells.

Warforged and Gearforged are also immortal. Gear forged are in the Kobold Press materials along with their version of a PC ghoul who is also immortal.