D&D 5E Sorcerer spell chains

[Blue]

OK, my thought on the spell chain design is that it should not replace the standard spell selection. It adds complexity, and feels like it would add a bit too much power, while also reducing the number of picks, which feels annoying for a spellcaster. Only allowing picks every other level would be kind of frustrating, even with the extra spells.

It adds complexity on level up - which is where we not just accept but embrace having lots of customization choices. At the table it doesn't increase complexity - you have spells known already picked, just like existing casters.

As for allowing picks every other level, I chose the reduction to minimize changes to existing rules. If I was designing it from scratch would be to do it on the even levels so you get new spells every level. On even levels, you would get new spells from additional chains. On odd levels you would get new spells by opening up new spell levels you can cast, which unlocks spells in chains you've already picked.

Changin the advancment from half sorcerer level plus one to half sorcerer level, round up, plus one, would do it. (Want to make sure not to cut down on choices at 1st level.)

 

[Blue]

@Blue I think the further you go down this path the more you realize that what you're really aiming for is (a) more tightly themed sorcerers, and (b) a more adaptive magic system for sorcerers. For me personally, that would looks like something quite unlike the current spell system

You are correct to nine decimal places. (That's a strong complement from me.) I do want more tightly themed / more adaptive sorcerers. I think that there isn't enough differentiation in casting right now.

The spell chains idea was presented specifically as a "minimum changes to the existing system" and leveraging the existing design work for spells. If designing from a blank page there's definitely better ways to do it.

 

[steeldragons]

I don't agree with the "let us pick spells, too" position being argued here. If you want the complexity, diversity, and cross-school self-determination, then be a Wizard (or a Warlock)...if you want to be a Sorcerer, then you're using magic that works/creates/effects THIS specific category/type/theme of magical effects. You can do this handful of things, powered by innate magic (Spell Points) and expanded/altered/diversified by Metamagics. Period.

Again, this further differentiates the Sorcerer through its flavor, as much as its mechanics, and lends some [much-needed] justification of its existence as a separate full class at all.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don't agree with the "let us pick spells, too" position being argued here. If you want the complexity, diversity, and cross-school self-determination, then be a Wizard (or a Warlock)...if you want to be a Sorcerer, then you're using magic that works/creates/effects THIS specific category/type/theme of magical effects. You can do this handful of things, powered by innate magic (Spell Points) and expanded/altered/diversified by Metamagics. Period.

Again, this further differentiates the Sorcerer through its flavor, as much as its mechanics, and lends some [much-needed] justification of its existence as a separate full class at all.

I totally disagree. A sorcerer that can only cast only fire spells and buff them a little bit in a few different ways is nothing more than a totally castrated wizard. Theme is just as important as power and your theme with that limitation is way underpowered compared to any other full caster. This is why we suggest giving the sorcerer multiple "themes" or more "chains" and possibly allowing him to pick any spell from his list a few times.

 

[steeldragons]

I totally disagree. A sorcerer that can only cast only fire spells and buff them a little bit in a few different ways is nothing more than a totally castrated wizard. Theme is just as important as power and your theme with that limitation is way underpowered compared to any other full caster. This is why we suggest giving the sorcerer multiple "themes" or more "chains" and possibly allowing him to pick any spell from his list a few times.

Agree to disagree, then.

A sorcerer isn't a wizard, castrated or otherwise. So what narrowing the themes makes the sorcerer -as compared to a full wizard- is completely irrelevant.

Could a sorcerer pick up different "chains" if they somehow relate or can be explained/re-described as applying to their main theme, then fine. That could be further defined within the themes themselves...Something like "taking the Fire Theme means at XYZ levels (built into the class features structure) you can add/expand into the Light chain or Paraelemental: Magma chain," for example. I could see that, but there, again, you're just adding complexity to a class that is already juggling three different "core mechanics."

Is the Fire Sorcerer going to play and feel and do different things than an Illusion-based sorcerer?...and will either of them feel/play/do different things than a Wizard PC?...YES! Absolutely they will...and absolutely they SHOULD.

 

[FrogReaver]

Agree to disagree, then.

A sorcerer isn't a wizard, castrated or otherwise. So what narrowing the themes makes the sorcerer -as compared to a full wizard- is completely irrelevant.

Could a sorcerer pick up different "chains" if they somehow relate or can be explained/re-described as applying to their main theme, then fine. That could be further defined within the themes themselves...Something like "taking the Fire Theme means at XYZ levels (built into the class features structure) you can add/expand into the Light chain or Paraelemental: Magma chain," for example. I could see that, but there, again, you're just adding complexity to a class that is already juggling three different "core mechanics."

Is the Fire Sorcerer going to play and feel and do different things than an Illusion-based sorcerer?...and will either of them feel/play/do different things than a Wizard PC?...YES! Absolutely they will...and absolutely they SHOULD.

Again, theme vs power. There's not enough power that can be enabled through a fire theme to justify the restriction the theme adds. Conceptually it's fine, mechanically it's terrible.

 

[steeldragons]

So, here, [MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION] , [MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION] , [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] , et al ...this is how I'm envisioning/thinking/dreaming this up as I run through it -in play- in my head...

The Sorcerer
HD, Proficiencies, Equipment all that crap is all the same (for now, though I'd seriously consider adding light armors and simple weapons, but warlocks already get that, don't they? So maybe not. ANYwho, for this/now, let's say it's all the same).

Proficiency Bonus is the same (as every other class).
Level . . Spell Points . . . . . . Features . . . . . . . . Spells Known . MM Known . Cantrips . 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th - 5th - 6th -7th .8th .9th
1st . . . . . . 2 . . . . Spellcasting, Sorcerous Chain . . . 2 . . . . . . . - . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 2
2nd . . . . . .3 . . . . . . . . . Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . . .2 . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 2
3rd . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . Arcane Sense . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . .1. . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 2 -- 2
4th . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . ASI, Metamagic . . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . .3 . . . . 2 -- 2
5th . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . Extra Cantrip . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . 2 -- 2 -- 2
6th . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . .3 . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . 2 -- 2 -- 2
7th . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . Chain Feature . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . .3 . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2
8th . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . ASI, Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . .4 . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2
9th . . . . . .10 . . . . . . . Sorcerous Recovery . . . . . . .10 . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2
10th . . . . .11 . . . . . . . . Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . .2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2
11th . . . . . 12 . . . . . . . Branching Out . . . . . . . . . . 13 . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . .6 . . . . 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1
12th . . . . . 13 . . . . . . . . ASI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . .6 . . . . 4 -- 2 -- 2 --2 -- 2 -- 1
13th . . . . . 14 . . . . . . . Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . . . .14 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1
14th . . . . . 15 . . . . . . . Chain Feature . . . . . . . . . . .15 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1
15th . . . . . 16 . . . . . . . Branching Out . . . . . . . . . . .18 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1
16th . . . . . 17 . . . . . . . . ASI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1
17th . . . . . 18 . . . . . . . Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . . . .19 . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1 -- 1
18th . . . . . 19 . . . . . . . Chain Feature . . . . . . . . . . .19 . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1 -- 1
19th . . . . . 20 . . . . . . . Branching Out . . . . . . . . . . .21 . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 10 . . . 4 -- 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1 -- 1
20th . . . . . 21 . . . . . Sorcerous Restoration . . . . . . . 21 . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 10 . . . .4 -- 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1 -- 1

Lemme 'splain a few things...
"Font of Magic" a.k.a. the accumulation of Spell Points to power casting, metamagic, spell slots/"flexible casting," and special powers is now wrapped up in "Spell Casting." Casting ability is still Charisma and you add Cha. mod to your total number of Spell Points. Spell Save DC and Attack bonuses standard/stays the same. You spell selection is defined by your Sorcerous Chain(s). Cantrips, of course, this is 5e after all, are at will.

Metamagics (let's say, for now) as normal. ASIs as normal. Sorcerous Restoration at 20th as normal.

Sorcerous Chain: You gain the following [3] cantrips and [2] First level spells to begin your life of adventure and magical pursuits. You gain /figure out additional spells and slots at the appropriate level as detailed on the progression chart. Features at 1st, 7th, 14th, 18th.
Chain Feature 1st: Thematic Resistance: you have advantage on all saves against effects and/or damage type as detailed by your Chain.

Arcane Sense: take the paladin's divine sense and apply it to arcane magic. 1 Spell Point and a bonus action to use. Include extraplanar beings of any kind (including fae, elementals, & undead), and sense Magic/spells of any kind in effect in a 50'.

Extra Cantrips: You've been working with expanding your powers/using your magic in new and diverse ways. Select two new cantrips that are not necessarily (but may be) related to your Sorcerous Chain from a different Chain's spell list.

Sorcerous Recovery: Following a short or long rest, once per day, you can reclaim up to half your level (rounded down) worth of Sorcery Points.

Branching Out: You continue to expand your sorcerous prowess. Select an additional/new Sorcerous Chain that is thematically related to your initial chain (as stipulated by your original chain choice). You gain the understanding and ability to use 2 cantrips and the 2 first level spells of that chain. At 15th level, you gain the 2 second level spells and 2 more cantrips chosen from related chains. At 19th level, you gain the 2 Third level spells of that related chain. Also at 19th you select two more cantrips that may be from any chain.

So, in the end, a virtual limitless supply of Spell Points, 7 of 8 Metamagics, 10 [at will] cantrips (Wizards have 5, current PHB Sorcerer has 6), 21 spell slots (to the Wizard's 22, current Sorcerer's 22), and 21 spells known (compared to the current sorcerer's 15), plus unique spell lists and features for each chain.

I don't see a lot of caster-ation happening here. Might even be OP'd.

 

[FrogReaver]

So, here, @Blue , @FrogReaver , @Quickleaf , et al ...this is how I'm envisioning/thinking/dreaming this up as I run through it -in play- in my head...

The Sorcerer
HD, Proficiencies, Equipment all that crap is all the same (for now, though I'd seriously consider adding light armors and simple weapons, but warlocks already get that, don't they? So maybe not. ANYwho, for this/now, let's say it's all the same).

Proficiency Bonus is the same (as every other class).
Level . . Spell Points . . . . . . Features . . . . . . . . Spells Known . MM Known . Cantrips . 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th - 5th - 6th -7th .8th .9th
1st . . . . . . 2 . . . . Spellcasting, Sorcerous Chain . . . 2 . . . . . . . - . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 2
2nd . . . . . .3 . . . . . . . . . Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . . .2 . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 2
3rd . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . Arcane Sense . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . .1. . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 2 -- 2
4th . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . ASI, Metamagic . . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . .3 . . . . 2 -- 2
5th . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . Extra Cantrip . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . 2 -- 2 -- 2
6th . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . .3 . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . 2 -- 2 -- 2
7th . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . Chain Feature . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . .3 . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2
8th . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . ASI, Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . .4 . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2
9th . . . . . .10 . . . . . . . Sorcerous Recovery . . . . . . .10 . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2
10th . . . . .11 . . . . . . . . Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . .2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2
11th . . . . . 12 . . . . . . . Branching Out . . . . . . . . . . 13 . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . .6 . . . . 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1
12th . . . . . 13 . . . . . . . . ASI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . .6 . . . . 4 -- 2 -- 2 --2 -- 2 -- 1
13th . . . . . 14 . . . . . . . Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . . . .14 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1
14th . . . . . 15 . . . . . . . Chain Feature . . . . . . . . . . .15 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1
15th . . . . . 16 . . . . . . . Branching Out . . . . . . . . . . .18 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1
16th . . . . . 17 . . . . . . . . ASI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1
17th . . . . . 18 . . . . . . . Metamagic . . . . . . . . . . . . .19 . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1 -- 1
18th . . . . . 19 . . . . . . . Chain Feature . . . . . . . . . . .19 . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1 -- 1
19th . . . . . 20 . . . . . . . Branching Out . . . . . . . . . . .21 . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 10 . . . 4 -- 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1 -- 1
20th . . . . . 21 . . . . . Sorcerous Restoration . . . . . . . 21 . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 10 . . . .4 -- 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 2 -- 2 -- 1 -- 1 -- 1

Lemme 'splain a few things...
"Font of Magic" a.k.a. the accumulation of Spell Points to power casting, metamagic, spell slots/"flexible casting," and special powers is now wrapped up in "Spell Casting." Casting ability is still Charisma and you add Cha. mod to your total number of Spell Points. Spell Save DC and Attack bonuses standard/stays the same. You spell selection is defined by your Sorcerous Chain(s). Cantrips, of course, this is 5e after all, are at will.

Metamagics (let's say, for now) as normal. ASIs as normal. Sorcerous Restoration at 20th as normal.

Sorcerous Chain: You gain the following [3] cantrips and [2] First level spells to begin your life of adventure and magical pursuits. You gain /figure out additional spells and slots at the appropriate level as detailed on the progression chart. Features at 1st, 7th, 14th, 18th.
Chain Feature 1st: Thematic Resistance: you have advantage on all saves against effects and/or damage type as detailed by your Chain.

Arcane Sense: take the paladin's divine sense and apply it to arcane magic. 1 Spell Point and a bonus action to use. Include extraplanar beings of any kind (including fae, elementals, & undead), and sense Magic/spells of any kind in effect in a 50'.

Extra Cantrips: You've been working with expanding your powers/using your magic in new and diverse ways. Select two new cantrips that are not necessarily (but may be) related to your Sorcerous Chain from a different Chain's spell list.

Sorcerous Recovery: Following a short or long rest, once per day, you can reclaim up to half your level (rounded down) worth of Sorcery Points.

Branching Out: You continue to expand your sorcerous prowess. Select an additional/new Sorcerous Chain that is thematically related to your initial chain (as stipulated by your original chain choice). You gain the understanding and ability to use 2 cantrips and the 2 first level spells of that chain. At 15th level, you gain the 2 second level spells and 2 more cantrips chosen from related chains. At 19th level, you gain the 2 Third level spells of that related chain. Also at 19th you select two more cantrips that may be from any chain.

So, in the end, a virtual limitless supply of Spell Points, 7 of 8 Metamagics, 10 [at will] cantrips (Wizards have 5, current PHB Sorcerer has 6), 21 spell slots (to the Wizard's 22, current Sorcerer's 22), and 21 spells known (compared to the current sorcerer's 15), plus unique spell lists and features for each chain.

I don't see a lot of caster-ation happening here. Might even be OP'd.

It's weird seeing someone detail something totally different than what their proposal entailed and then saying the earlier criticism of their proposal don't have any merit based on that...

Otherwise, good work.

 

[steeldragons]

It's weird seeing someone detail something totally different than what their proposal entailed and then saying the earlier criticism of their proposal don't have any merit based on that...

Otherwise, good work.

Well, thanks. But it's not "totally different."

My initial post, as I said, was an example of the first 10 levels of play. So you had 10 spells to choose from

Taking your concerns/comments into consideration, I added in the expanding spell selections/chains...but, as I also stated, they're still going to be thematic and defined by your first choice (more work in creating the "subclass" Chains than 2 spells per level 1-6 and 1 each 7th, 8th, 9th, but not undoable).

It's still not going to be players choosing whatever spells they want. You're locked into a set of options. So there's player "agency"/choice...but not a free-for-all. A Fire Sorcerer is never going to be a great diviner or mind reader or illusion maker. They just won't. His/Her spells are still going to be flame, heat or light related. Probably overwhelmingly combative, offense/defense, applications. That's just what they'll get. With some limited utility worked in either in the spell choices or the Chain features as best they can. A Shadow Sorcerer would never be able to choose Radiant/Light spells, an Illusion-based guy won't be able to create "real" alterations/transmutations, and so on.

So, I'm curious, from your reading, what do you like? Where you see the line/crossing point to meeting your expectations for "power" over "theme." Or was it just that looking at it from the 10 level example/precursors you didn't extrapolate out a full 20 levels?

 

[Quickleaf]

You are correct to nine decimal places. (That's a strong complement from me.) I do want more tightly themed / more adaptive sorcerers. I think that there isn't enough differentiation in casting right now.

The spell chains idea was presented specifically as a "minimum changes to the existing system" and leveraging the existing design work for spells. If designing from a blank page there's definitely better ways to do it.

Have you considered using the UA Mystic and just calling it a "Sorcerer"? The psionic disciplines look very close to what I'd envision for a re-designed sorcerer with tighter theme and more adaptability within those themes.

One example from that document....

Aura Sight
Awakened Discipline
You refocus your sight to see the energy that surrounds all creatures. You perceive auras, energy signatures that can reveal key elements of a creature’s nature.
Psychic Focus. While focused on this discipline, you have advantage on Wisdom (Insight) checks.
Assess Foe (2 psi). As a bonus action, you analyze the aura of one creature you see. You learn its current hit point total and all its immunities, resistances, and vulnerabilities.
Read Moods (2 psi). As a bonus action, you learn a one-word summary of the emotional state of up to six creatures you can see, such as happy, confused, afraid, or violent.
View Aura (3 psi; conc., 1 hr.). As an action, you study one creature’s aura. Until your concentration ends, while you can see the target, you learn if it’s under the effect of any magical or psionic effects, its current hit point total, and its basic emotional state. While this effect lasts, you
have advantage on Wisdom (Insight) and Charisma checks you make against it.
Perceive the Unseen (5 psi; conc., 1 min.). As a bonus action, you gain the ability to see auras even of invisible or hidden creatures. Until your concentration ends, you can see all creatures, including hidden and invisible ones, regardless of lighting conditions.

...I could easily see adding a version of [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION] "see magic" into the mix of Aura Sight.