How do we fix the Sorcerer?

[Gadget]

Unlike the OP, I Think the Loremaster Wizard was outright broken; making the Sorcerer superfluous was a mere afterthought.

I will agree that the Sorcerer, while competent, feels a little awkward and restrained. However, I don't feel the solution is to take new-vancian casting away from other casters so sorcerers can be unique again; they just need more unique things to do.

1) I would allow them access to more meta-magic earlier in their career. I had thought about given them the ability to apply Subtle Spell for free at a certain level, as long as they had at least one Sorcery Point left. But that might be too much.
2) Only allow them to use Flexible Casting to make more spell slots once per long rest. This would open up opportunities to recover Sorcery Points outside of a long rest without giving them unlimited stamina. They could then recover CHA mod Sorcery Points per short rest. Perhaps subclass' could give unique options to recover as well (On Wild Magic Surge, gain one SP).

This would at least given them more room to perform their shtick without giving them unlimited stamina or overpowering them, IMHO.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't feel the solution is to take new-vancian casting away from other casters so sorcerers can be unique again;

I'm so glad you disagree! I thought no one had even noticed that suggestion.

Not that they'd be that unique, the Bard uses the same casting mechanism, as do some off-casters. If anything, it'd make the wizard more unique - and a bit less versatile, so a bit less able to overshadow the sorcerer, that way.

 

[Kinematics]

On further review of the Mystic, I would say:

1) It leans a little too much on the psionics to be a pure replacement for Sorcerer. Not surprising, given its design, but something to keep in mind when considering it as a replacement.

2) It is missing a few disciplines to help flesh out possibilities. On the other hand, it is very easy to add new disciplines, as well as expand the options available within each discipline.

3) Given that each discipline is very narrowly focused in purpose, it's not very unbalancing to add new options to it, compared to giving a Sorcerer more spells and wondering if he's going to build a random grab-bag of Haste + Teleport + Disintegrate + Hypnotic Pattern, or some such. With disciplines, having a new idea you want to add to the list should be natural and encouraged. You're limited to only a few general power concepts per character (up to 8 at 20th level), but can be very creative within each concept.

4) Mystic still has some balance issues that would need to be considered.

So basically, Sorcerer would be Mystic with less "psychic" flavor. The mechanics of the Mystic work fine as a chassis. The psi points per level are identical to spell points per level up to level 10. It just uses a different mechanic for handling stuff that would be 6th+ level spells, giving you a separate pool that lets you use multiple discipline abilities simultaneously — including multiple concentration effects. (And I am totally on board with that trade-off.)

You could conceivably add an extra pool for sorcery points for metamagic on top of that (and just not use or need the Font of Magic spell slot burning/creation mechanic). Since the 'spell' scopes are more limited and cohesive (you have 5 disciplines at level 10, rather than 11 independent spells), it may also help with some of the imbalanced nature of metamagic. You can't just get the exact spells that works perfectly with 'this' metamagic; your metamagic has to be considered with respect to the entire range of abilities that each discipline provides. It's no longer a competition between spells chosen and metamagics selected, since a given discipline may be viable for multiple metamagics.

Currently trying to rewrite the sorcerer using the mystic chassis to see how it shakes out.

 

[cbwjm]

On further review of the Mystic, I would say:

1) It leans a little too much on the psionics to be a pure replacement for Sorcerer. Not surprising, given its design, but something to keep in mind when considering it as a replacement.

2) It is missing a few disciplines to help flesh out possibilities. On the other hand, it is very easy to add new disciplines, as well as expand the options available within each discipline.

3) Given that each discipline is very narrowly focused in purpose, it's not very unbalancing to add new options to it, compared to giving a Sorcerer more spells and wondering if he's going to build a random grab-bag of Haste + Teleport + Disintegrate + Hypnotic Pattern, or some such. With disciplines, having a new idea you want to add to the list should be natural and encouraged. You're limited to only a few general power concepts per character (up to 8 at 20th level), but can be very creative within each concept.

4) Mystic still has some balance issues that would need to be considered.

So basically, Sorcerer would be Mystic with less "psychic" flavor. The mechanics of the Mystic work fine as a chassis. The psi points per level are identical to spell points per level up to level 10. It just uses a different mechanic for handling stuff that would be 6th+ level spells, giving you a separate pool that lets you use multiple discipline abilities simultaneously — including multiple concentration effects. (And I am totally on board with that trade-off.)

You could conceivably add an extra pool for sorcery points for metamagic on top of that (and just not use or need the Font of Magic spell slot burning/creation mechanic). Since the 'spell' scopes are more limited and cohesive (you have 5 disciplines at level 10, rather than 11 independent spells), it may also help with some of the imbalanced nature of metamagic. You can't just get the exact spells that works perfectly with 'this' metamagic; your metamagic has to be considered with respect to the entire range of abilities that each discipline provides. It's no longer a competition between spells chosen and metamagics selected, since a given discipline may be viable for multiple metamagics.

Currently trying to rewrite the sorcerer using the mystic chassis to see how it shakes out.

I really like the idea of the mystic used as a sorcerer class. It reminds me of the Dragonlance Saga edition sorcerer which knew a few disciplines and was able to manipulate magic for effects within those disciplines. The base class might not be perfect since it is flavoured more towards psionics but the idea of the disciplines for the sorcerer is definitely something I like.

 

[Horwath]

1. Let sorcery points be on short rest recharge.

2. reduce the cost of some metamagic effects by 1. I.E. subtle spell,distant spell, carefull sepll

3. Draconic bloodline should have built in breath weapon that costs spell slots or sorcery points to emulate dragons breath weapon.

 

[cbwjm]

1. Let sorcery points be on short rest recharge.

2. reduce the cost of some metamagic effects by 1. I.E. subtle spell,distant spell, carefull sepll

3. Draconic bloodline should have built in breath weapon that costs spell slots or sorcery points to emulate dragons breath weapon.

I think you need to be careful with requiring sorcery points/ spell slots as a power source for class abilities. Apparently players don't like taking a limited resource and making it seven more limited by introducing more uses for it. This is according to comments by Mike Mearls on the earlier sorcerer video.

A breath weapon would be a sweet addition though.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It's interesting to hear the Mystic brought up as an alternative to the Sorcerer, because, before the Mystic entered development, when the topic of psionics' absence from the PH (psionics /was/ in a PH1, just not as a class, so it was marginal whether it would even be considered), the Sorcerer was often brought up as a way of adding psionics: "Just add a Sorcerer sub-class, it can use subtle spell to cast w/o components and have telepathy or something, boom, done, all the psionics you'll ever need." Obviously, that was considered inadequate, psionics has, at times, been distinct from magic in D&D, and has always been different from spellcasting, so a spell-caster as sole psionic was unacceptable to fans of psionics (even if, each incarnation of psionics being so different in each edition, they couldn't agree on a whole lot more).

Of course, the really over the top dismissal of the psion was "Just play a GOO Warlock, they're telepaths, with the right spells, they do everything psionics is suppoed to ."

 

[MechaTarrasque]

It's interesting to hear the Mystic brought up as an alternative to the Sorcerer, because, before the Mystic entered development, when the topic of psionics' absence from the PH (psionics /was/ in a PH1, just not as a class, so it was marginal whether it would even be considered), the Sorcerer was often brought up as a way of adding psionics: "Just add a Sorcerer sub-class, it can use subtle spell to cast w/o components and have telepathy or something, boom, done, all the psionics you'll ever need." Obviously, that was considered inadequate, psionics has, at times, been distinct from magic in D&D, and has always been different from spellcasting, so a spell-caster as sole psionic was unacceptable to fans of psionics (even if, each incarnation of psionics being so different in each edition, they couldn't agree on a whole lot more).

Of course, the really over the top dismissal of the psion was "Just play a GOO Warlock, they're telepaths, with the right spells, they do everything psionics is suppoed to ."

Pretty similar target audiences: both want to do magic (even if one group doesn't like to call it that, but it is remarkable how close things they want to do line up to specific spells) differently than the wizard*. On top of that, the latest version of the mystic's psychics are considered magic and where are the protests? It is seems like there is a lot of "mile wide, but inch deep" going on here.

* both audiences also have obsessions with the wizard. Somehow if their favored class can't do nearly every single thing the same thing (or better) than the wizard**, something is wrong.

**except arcana/history/etc. checks, but now that I mentioned it, I am sure someone will claim they should be better at that too.

 

[Tony Vargas]

* both audiences also have obsessions with the wizard. Somehow if their favored class can't do nearly every single thing the same thing (or better) than the wizard**, something is wrong.

If you want to play your hypothetical class some day, you probably want it to be effective, so aim high! There's only a few targets to choose from in Tier 1.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

If you want to play your hypothetical class some day, you probably want it to be effective, so aim high! There's only a few targets to choose from in Tier 1.

I will just repeat my long-held belief that one of the best things in 4e was that they put sorcerers and wizards in different roles.