D&D 5E The best solution for longswords

[Ovarwa]

Tolkien elves are just plain better. Their long swords do not need to have Finesse.

D&D elves are more elfin. They would prefer Finesse weapons.

Naturally, we get a disconnect when equipping D&D elves with favored weapons of the Noldor.

 

[Hriston]

If we assume something like a normal distribution of scores in a population of D&D elves (barring any sub-race with a bonus to STR), around 59% will have at least 12 in either STR or DEX, and at least 10 in the other score. I think this is the minimum to be considered for training as a regular combatant. Around 73% of those (43% of the total population) will be suited to be trained as DEX-based combatants due to having a higher DEX than STR. Another roughly 17% of those (10% of the total population) will be suited to be trained as STR-based combatants due to having a higher STR than DEX. The remaining 10% of regular combatants (about 6% of the total population) will be equally suited to training as either DEX-based or STR-based combatants due to having DEX and STR scores that are equal. For the 27% of elvish regular combatants whose STR is greater than or equal to their DEX (who most likely make up the bulk of elvish melee fighters, the DEX-based troops using the bow as a primary weapon), the longsword is a perfectly apt choice of weapon.

Also, as a player, you are free to create a high elf, for example, with the following scores, using the standard array:

STR 15
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 13
CHA 12

There's no reason why a longsword isn't a good weapon for this character.

 

[werecorpse]

If we assume something like a normal distribution of scores in a population of D&D elves (barring any sub-race with a bonus to STR), around 59% will have at least 12 in either STR or DEX, and at least 10 in the other score. I think this is the minimum to be considered for training as a regular combatant. Around 73% of those (43% of the total population) will be suited to be trained as DEX-based combatants due to having a higher DEX than STR. Another roughly 17% of those (10% of the total population) will be suited to be trained as STR-based combatants due to having a higher STR than DEX. The remaining 10% of regular combatants (about 6% of the total population) will be equally suited to training as either DEX-based or STR-based combatants due to having DEX and STR scores that are equal. For the 27% of elvish regular combatants whose STR is greater than or equal to their DEX (who most likely make up the bulk of elvish melee fighters, the DEX-based troops using the bow as a primary weapon), the longsword is a perfectly apt choice of weapon.

Also, as a player, you are free to create a high elf, for example, with the following scores, using the standard array:

STR 15
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 13
CHA 12

There's no reason why a longsword isn't a good weapon for this character.

Yes, but that PC stat array is also likely to be a class that is proficient in all martial weapons so racial weapon proficiency is irrelevant.

Either you accept the premise that in the standard D&D 5e world elves that do not get martial weapon proficiency as a class ability are raw rai rawhatever more likely to have higher Dex than strength or you don't. I think it's true. If you don't the whole argument as to why they would be trained in finesse or light weapons fails - that's because it's a premise of the argument.

 

[Ancalagon]

@Ancalogon maybe the missunderstanding is that i refer to Overall length (contraire to blade length)

... but you *said blade length!* My entire premise is based on what you wrote.

"A Long sword historically is a designated 2 handed weapon of approx 1m20 (4ft) bladelength "

 

[Hriston]

Yes, but that PC stat array is also likely to be a class that is proficient in all martial weapons so racial weapon proficiency is irrelevant.

OK, then how about this high elf wizard?

STR 14
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 10

It's awesome for this character to have proficiency in longsword!

Either you accept the premise that in the standard D&D 5e world elves that do not get martial weapon proficiency as a class ability are raw rai rawhatever more likely to have higher Dex than strength or you don't. I think it's true. If you don't the whole argument as to why they would be trained in finesse or light weapons fails - that's because it's a premise of the argument.

But I do accept that premise. I think the part of my post that you quoted but didn't really respond to shows that I'm aware that the racial increase to DEX makes it more likely than not for an elf to have a DEX higher than her STR. In fact, assuming a normal distribution of scores, it's about 3 times as likely. But it being more likely doesn't mean there aren't plenty of elves that don't belong to any character class and so don't gain proficiency with all martial weapons but that nevertheless have a STR score at least equal to DEX, if not greater. Elven longswordsmen are selected from this segment of the population.

I think the difference in opinion on this issue points to people having different takes on game design. 5e seems to me to be written to support a wide variety of character concepts. You aren't confined to playing the "most likely" elf, but rather you can play the type of elf you imagine.

 

[Coroc]

@Ancalogon #194 Ups sorry , i did not reread my old post, where i also meant overall length, but wrote bladelength. So you are right of course, although imho on the upper range 1m20 bladelength would not be to long for a late knightly longsword, but as we all agreed it would be overall length rather in most cases.

 

[Coroc]

[MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] super nice build, very versatile, and ..... it is not a powergamer build !!

Why? Well your elf wizard got cantrips in 5e - means unless your DM does not Feature a no Magic Zone every other session your elf wizard will use his cantrips rather than his longsword. Therefore any optimized powergamer build would put those Points for Str in Wis rather for better saving throw.

So if your wizard would use his longsword at my table instead of cantrips you might get Bonus XP for good RP from time to time

 

[jaelis]

[MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] super nice build, very versatile, and ..... it is not a powergamer build !!

Why? Well your elf wizard got cantrips in 5e - means unless your DM does not Feature a no Magic Zone every other session your elf wizard will use his cantrips rather than his longsword. Therefore any optimized powergamer build would put those Points for Str in Wis rather for better saving throw.

So if your wizard would use his longsword at my table instead of cantrips you might get Bonus XP for good RP from time to time

Bladesinger who makes effective use of grapples and pushes. Nothing like holding your opponent down next to your own flaming sphere

 

[Yaarel]

If we assume something like a normal distribution of scores in a population of D&D elves (barring any sub-race with a bonus to STR), around 59% will have at least 12 in either STR or DEX, and at least 10 in the other score.

Cultures function in the aggregate. Even a slight statistical advantage will be selected for, and organized around.

For those elves that gain a ‘superhuman’ +2 to the Dexterity curve, I find it implausible that their culture would center around a Strength weapon. From unlikely to impossible across thousands of years.

 

[Yaarel]

The elf longsword problem has various alternative solutions.

Remove the Dexterity bonus from elves.
• Allow elf players to choose which ability score the +2 goes to.
• Make all elves Charisma +2 and two Any +1, same as half elf.
• Create elf ancestry that is gishy and strong. Note, Basic D&D has Intelligence-Strength elf.

Remove weapons from race features.

Rethink the weapons.
• Add a ‘sword’ or ‘knightly sword’ to the standard weapons table, with the agile ‘finesse’ property. Assign it to high elf.
• Allow the ‘elegant’ ‘dancing’ elf fighting style to apply the finesse property even to longswords.

Remove the finesse property. All weapons require athletic accuracy via Strength.