OOC Sword of Valor, Wrath of the Righteous AP by MLeibrock and Scotley

[Maidhc O Casain]

The IC question about how readied actions worked prompted me to do a little research, especially since as a player I've been limited by a GM in just this situation. I debated with him for a few posts but eventually saw his point and agreed. Most (but not all) of the folks I've found chiming in seem to agree as well. Note that I'm not suggesting in any way that we change the ruling in this case, nor am I trying to step on any toes - just fostering a spirited rules discussion.

The arguments against using Readied Actions in this manner go like this:

• Readied actions have to be taken in combat (after initiative). This started with 3.5. On page 26 of the DMG it says, "Don't allow players to take a readied action outside of combat."
• The rules are in the combat section of the Pathfinder core rulebook, and specifically refer to standard actions and rounds - terms that have no meaning outside of combat.
• Finally, what you're really looking at is acting before initiative is rolled - the very definition of a surprise round, which is the mechanic that should be used in these situations.

Yes, special forces/police squads/etc go charging through doors as a standard tactic. If they've been sufficiently sneaky coming up to the door they take the bad guys on the other side by surprise. If not, they're met with a hail of gunfire as soon as the door flies open.

For this specific instance it could be argued that while our feisty Kobold was ready to charge through the door the bad-ass demon was just as ready for someone to come charging through, since there was no surprise on either side of the dice. Imagine the cries of outrage if it were us behind the door and the demon charging through... "What!? But we weren't surprised and we won the initiative... how do they still get to go first?!" (I can't speak for everyone else, obviously, but Scotley and Yrel can surely attest that I at least would be protesting loudly ).



The arguments for seem to be based more on the vague wording and the fact that using them this way is not specifically forbidden in Pathfinder (though it was more than a strong suggestion in 3.5).

 

[Neurotic]

This is something I didn't know.
Ambush = ready action until they get to specific position how is that in combat rounds?
We're noticed by some, surprise, roll Init and you May or may not go first even if you prepared for it because you cannot fulfill your trigger

It's not like they stand around declaring ready action each round. They ready themselves when targets approach. Which WOULD be appropriate time to roll Init except that the players would immediately metagame.

I didn't know this rule and will be mindful of it next time. Thanks.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

Ambush = ready action until they get to specific position how is that in combat rounds?

I didn't know this rule and will be mindful of it next time. Thanks.

That's the thing - it's all opinions. In Pathfinder it's not presented as a rule. Even in 3.5, it wasn't exactly presented as a rule ("Players are not allowed to ready actions outside combat"), but more like an instruction to the DM ("Don't let your players ready actions outside of combat"). It's a subtle difference, I know, but it's enough to muddy the waters. That's why there's so much discussion and disagreement around.

My opinion on the "Ambush" case above: It's not in combat rounds. And even though you're "getting ready" to attack when the other party gets close enough, it's also not a readied action - not in rules/mechanics terms, anyway. It's a stealth check opposed by the other party's perception to determine surprise. I would use the surprise mechanic for this, not the readied action mechanic.

 

[Scotley]

Yeah, there was definitely no surprise given the noise, so I decided, as I often do, to rule in favor of fun. Just get in there and start fighting. I was at least vaguely aware that that readied actions don't apply outside combat and I knew instinctively that using them to subvert initiative would be trouble. Thank you for taking the time I didn't have to get us some good info.

Going forward, assume we roll initiative before readying actions. Thank you!

 

[Leif]

The IC question about how readied actions worked prompted me to do a little research, especially since as a player I've been limited by a GM in just this situation. I debated with him for a few posts but eventually saw his point and agreed. Most (but not all) of the folks I've found chiming in seem to agree as well. Note that I'm not suggesting in any way that we change the ruling in this case, nor am I trying to step on any toes - just fostering a spirited rules discussion.

The arguments against using Readied Actions in this manner go like this:

• Readied actions have to be taken in combat (after initiative). This started with 3.5. On page 26 of the DMG it says, "Don't allow players to take a readied action outside of combat."
• The rules are in the combat section of the Pathfinder core rulebook, and specifically refer to standard actions and rounds - terms that have no meaning outside of combat.
• Finally, what you're really looking at is acting before initiative is rolled - the very definition of a surprise round, which is the mechanic that should be used in these situations.

Yes, special forces/police squads/etc go charging through doors as a standard tactic. If they've been sufficiently sneaky coming up to the door they take the bad guys on the other side by surprise. If not, they're met with a hail of gunfire as soon as the door flies open.

For this specific instance it could be argued that while our feisty Kobold was ready to charge through the door the bad-ass demon was just as ready for someone to come charging through, since there was no surprise on either side of the dice. Imagine the cries of outrage if it were us behind the door and the demon charging through... "What!? But we weren't surprised and we won the initiative... how do they still get to go first?!" (I can't speak for everyone else, obviously, but Scotley and Yrel can surely attest that I at least would be protesting loudly ).



The arguments for seem to be based more on the vague wording and the fact that using them this way is not specifically forbidden in Pathfinder (though it was more than a strong suggestion in 3.5).

Yeah, there was definitely no surprise given the noise, so I decided, as I often do, to rule in favor of fun. Just get in there and start fighting. I was at least vaguely aware that that readied actions don't apply outside combat and I knew instinctively that using them to subvert initiative would be trouble. Thank you for taking the time I didn't have to get us some good info.

Going forward, assume we roll initiative before readying actions. Thank you!

FIRST OF ALL, I heartily agree that Maidhc would be protesting, throwing down the gauntlet, and going for his concealed switchblade if a DM did him this way.

SECOND, I agree with Scotley's statement about just using initiative and letting the chips fall. You shouldn't be able to ,in effect, get an automatic maxed init roll by preparing an action. That defeats the whole initiative system, which is specifically designed to add a random element to every combat. Any veterans/boxers/former gang members will agree that there's just no way to plan for everything that could, can, and usually does happen in a combat situation. Combat is Murphy's Law on cocaine and steroids. Not that I actually know, mind you, I've been close a few times, but I've managed to heave my butt out of the fire at the last possible moment each time. Like when I was in the Army Reserve and my unit had an unheard-of VOLUNTARY call-up for Desert Storm, and I voluntarily decided to stay at home and in law school. Or when Maidhc was out for my blood in middle school and had a trap set for me that involved him inserting a lawn rake into my skull at high speed. Again, I wisely just stayed at home, and we became fast friends against all odds. Believe it or not, I may have actually been an A-Hole in those days.

 

[Neurotic]

Since Scotley allowed readied actions this time, unless the demon fails his fort I'm dead. Especially if those ghouls have rogue levels.

 

[Kaodi]

This is what happens when you play a kobold. Provenance gets confused about who the PCs are and then you die.

 

[Leif]

You're playing a Kobold on purpose??? Sheesh, why are you angry with yourself and inflicting such dire punishment on yourself?

 

[Neurotic]

You're playing a Kobold on purpose??? Sheesh, why are you angry with yourself and inflicting such dire punishment on yourself?

It's hardly standard kobold - and I pick suboptimal things so I can make a good story and indulge my inner optimizer without fear of creating a monster

 

[Leif]

It's hardly standard kobold - and I pick suboptimal things so I can make a good story and indulge my inner optimizer without fear of creating a monster

Uhhh, Kobolds ARE Monsters, last time I checked.