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D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

jgsugden

Legend
Even with a restrictive DM, it's a strong spell (with a generous DM, it's busted as hell). Here's my go-to illusion: "An adamantine helmet with no visor, glowing red hot and bolted tightly around the target's neck."...
You may be underestimating how restrictive some DMs can be. Some DMs approach the game from a position that thie players are the opposition, and they try to work around any 'nerfing' of their monsters. A restrictive DM may allow the target an Acrobatics check to slip out of the helm, despite your description. The most restrictive might give it to the target as their "interaction with an object" for the turn, even.

However, I agree that *most* DMs would at a minimum force the creature to use an action to try to get ride of the illusion, and that would require an investigation ability check, unless the creature has an ability to escape the helm. That is usually good value, but a successful hold person is stronger in many ways for a 1 round benefit.
 

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Dausuul

Legend
You may be underestimating how restrictive some DMs can be.
Fair enough. I'm assuming a DM who takes a fairly strict view, but not an "I will actively seek to shut down whatever you do" one.

However, I agree that *most* DMs would at a minimum force the creature to use an action to try to get ride of the illusion, and that would require an investigation ability check, unless the creature has an ability to escape the helm. That is usually good value, but a successful hold person is stronger in many ways for a 1 round benefit.
Against humanoids, hold person is death on wheels. No other spell of its level (or for some levels above it) comes close. You can even upcast it for multiple targets. It's the last word in debuffs.

However, against anything other than humanoids, it's useless. That's the nice thing about phantasmal force; it works on anything but constructs and undead. And it's got lots of uses besides the "burning bucket-head" trick, both in combat and out. Versatility and power makes for a great spell. Hold person has immense power, but no versatility.
 

BlivetWidget

Explorer
Arcane Tradition: School of Abjuration. Rank 3

Arcane Ward (2nd level): This has always been considered a good ability, but my opinion of it has only increased. This isn't an increase to your HP total like from an Aid spell, or Temporary HP like from Inspiring leader, this is something else entirely, so it can stack with either or both of those things. Furthermore, this scales well, and at level 20, this is a 25 HP ward.

Shouldn't a level 20 Abjurer's ward be 45 HP? 2 x wizard level + INT. Or did you mean to say level 10?


War Magic's Power Surge seems worse than Evocation's Potent Cantrip, IMHO (and that's saying something, as much as I love Evocation). Unless you're fighting casters, you can only use it once per short rest. So for a level 6 War Mage, that's 3 damage per fight, assuming you get a short rest between them. Potent Cantrip will net you approximately 3 damage every time you miss with Frostbite at that level (more for Toll the Dead, but let's keep the numbers low to be conservative). In my experience the real benefit of Potent Cantrip is psychological quality of life. With it, using an appropriate cantrip means you can never have a turn where you contribute nothing. Your average Frostbite damage at that level vs an orc only goes from 3.2 to 4.8 (Empowered Evocation hasn't kicked in), but in two misses you've caught up to the War Mage in terms of extra damage.

I would actually be very interested to hear how your (or anyone's) experience with the War Mage went. I can't seem to get past the idea that the Arcane Deflection shuts down your ability to use non-cantrip spells until the end of your next turn. You say it's not much of a handicap at all, but this is a far heftier cost than that of a Bonus Action spell. Depending on where in the turn order you used it, the battlefield could change a lot between when you used Arcane Deflection and your turn. You might not know you're about to be swarmed and in need of Misty Step. Or you get attacked again and wish you'd used Shield the first time, but now you don't have the option. I don't know, this one just makes me nervous.

Edit: and it kills your ability to counterspell if you need to, oof.
 
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Shouldn't a level 20 Abjurer's ward be 45 HP? 2 x wizard level + INT. Or did you mean to say level 10?
Good catch, I'll make an edit. I meant level 10.

War Magic's Power Surge seems worse than Evocation's Potent Cantrip, IMHO (and that's saying something, as much as I love Evocation). Unless you're fighting casters, you can only use it once per short rest. So for a level 6 War Mage, that's 3 damage per fight, assuming you get a short rest between them. Potent Cantrip will net you approximately 3 damage every time you miss with Frostbite at that level (more for Toll the Dead, but let's keep the numbers low to be conservative). In my experience the real benefit of Potent Cantrip is psychological quality of life. With it, using an appropriate cantrip means you can never have a turn where you contribute nothing. Your average Frostbite damage at that level vs an orc only goes from 3.2 to 4.8 (Empowered Evocation hasn't kicked in), but in two misses you've caught up to the War Mage in terms of extra damage.

To some extent, it seems like a disagreement over which tastes worse, lima beans or liver. They are both bad. The reason I think Power Surge is a slight bit better is flexibility. Potent Cantrip is only providing damage if we assume that:
1: You are casting a save or take damage cantrip in combat
2: The enemy fails their save
3: This happens multiple times per short rest
Even then, which battles are you casting cantrips? I expect the easy battles. These are the battles where that damage is less important. When is the War Mage using power surge? I imagine vs the big tough baddie, where more damage is important.

Also, as we go up from level 6, we would expect to use less and less cantrips in battle (eventually we use none, or near none). Power surge on the other hand, will increase in damage as we go up in level, and we will always be able to use it.

Still, they both are pretty bad. Lima beans are worse though.

I would actually be very interested to hear how your (or anyone's) experience with the War Mage went. I can't seem to get past the idea that the Arcane Deflection shuts down your ability to use non-cantrip spells until the end of your next turn. You say it's not much of a handicap at all, but this is a far heftier cost than that of a Bonus Action spell. Depending on where in the turn order you used it, the battlefield could change a lot between when you used Arcane Deflection and your turn. You might not know you're about to be swarmed and in need of Misty Step. Or you get attacked again and wish you'd used Shield the first time, but now you don't have the option. I don't know, this one just makes me nervous.

I think Arcane Deflection is a great combat ability at low level. I'm not using counterspell at that point, and if I can save a spell slot (that shield would use, or absorb elements would use) then that's quite valuable. In addition, I might be out of spell slots entirely, in which case, this is a gift that keeps giving, with no downside at that point.

As levels increase, I think it becomes more and more a non-combat ability. Hit by a poison dart trap? Arcane deflection for +4 to poison save. That kind of thing. My 20th level wizard would never use this in combat....I don't cast cantrips at that level much at all, and being restricted to cantrips is not worth it.
 

jgsugden

Legend
Oh, and another thing to consider with schools for high level PCs - Simulacrums. What schools make the best simulacrums? When your simulacrum runs out of spells and is down to cantrips and at will abilities, which ones are the most useful as a simulacrum? Not all wizards will make simulacra, nor will they always make them of themselves, but many do. The simulacra of wizards can cast rituals, use cantrips, use school based abilities, etc...
 

Gadget

Adventurer
Good insights. A few comments:

Improved Minor Illusion (2nd level): I love the minor illusion spell, so any enhancement seems really amazing. This enhancement is...fine. Don't get me wrong, I'll take it, and I've used it, but it is no game-changer.

Minor Illusion is a great cantrip, but I fear from what I've read on these boards that many use it a Silent Image - the cantrip. It is limited to stationary items (not creatures) within the size limitations. As such I fail to see how adding sound to such images is anything but the most circumstantial of benefits. Though I could be missing something.


Split Enchantment (10th level): This allows you to target a second creature with an enchantment spell that would normally target one creature (spell of first level or higher - so no enhancing the friends cantrip).

This sounds amazing, but if you think about it, enchantment spells that target one creature tend to be kind of so-so, so we aren’t enhancing spells that are great to begin with. That said, we can take some spells that were so-so, and turn them into some pretty potent spells. Here’s some choices I think become great spells for the level:
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter (level 1)
Suggestion (level 2)
Charm Monster (level 4)
Hold Monster (level 5)
Otto’s Irresistible Dance (level 6)
Feeblemind (level 8)

I feel that Otto's Irresistible Dance should probably be targeting multiple targets to begin with anyway. Yes I know it auto effects the target until they spend an action on their turn to resist (unless they are immune to charms), but it's not doing much more than Maximillian's Earthen Grasp and Tasha's Hideous Laughter were doing many levels lower. Probably an argument for another thread I guess.
 

BlivetWidget

Explorer
Lima beans are worse though.

Say what now? I never met a bean I didn't like! And I'm not sure if I've ever had straight liver, but I do love me some haggis. The next day, unfortunately, it gives me gas on par with Poison Spray, only there's no save. No save whatsoever.

Agreed, both abilities aren't particularly good. I must be the oddball though: in my last campaign, I would usually throw down a concentration spell and then rely on cantrips for most fights. I also took three feats and not a single ASI by the end of the game (one feat was Magic Initiate Wizard for effectively +1 spell slot and +2 cantrips because I love cantrips), so this experience may not be typical =D.
 


smbakeresq

Explorer
Just a minor quibble: With only 2 uses per long rest, Portent is rather less potent if you actually use the 6 encounters between long rests guideline.

I actually use more encounters then that. However Portent is what you use when you have to have them fail.

I also make sure a diviner that is well played will get more information then any other person in the game. The player just needs to RP that they are casting the bones, reading the signs and all all the other stuff divinest do to uncover the future. If it’s their focus and they do it right they should be rewarded for it.
 

Good insights. A few comments:



Minor Illusion is a great cantrip, but I fear from what I've read on these boards that many use it a Silent Image - the cantrip. It is limited to stationary items (not creatures) within the size limitations. As such I fail to see how adding sound to such images is anything but the most circumstantial of benefits. Though I could be missing something.




I feel that Otto's Irresistible Dance should probably be targeting multiple targets to begin with anyway. Yes I know it auto effects the target until they spend an action on their turn to resist (unless they are immune to charms), but it's not doing much more than Maximillian's Earthen Grasp and Tasha's Hideous Laughter were doing many levels lower. Probably an argument for another thread I guess.
As I mentioned, split enchantment isn't enhancing particularly good spells, but they become good after the enhancement. Tasha's is a exception since it is good to begin with, becoming great with split enchantment. Potentially incapacitating 2 high CR creatures with a first level spell is fantastic.
 

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