Sage Advice: Plane and world hopping (includes how Eberron and Ravnica fit in D&D cosmology)

[DEFCON 1]

I would say that it's more akin to being told as a parent that your children are morons. Your children may be ignorant to this "greater truth," but that doesn't mean that you won't be offended as a parent by having your children being presented as dumb, ignorant clods.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I see where you're coming from.

But then let me ask this question... so some rando has already called your kid a moron. What are you going to do about it?

Because the game and the people involved have already done that. And no amount of questioning it is changing the fact that they've already called your kid a moron. What's your next step here? Even if you somehow can get one or two people to recant and say "Naw, I was just kidding!", there are going to be thousands of other people saying "No, you were right the first time." What do you do then?

Seems to me, the only thing you CAN do is to just not give what they say any credence. So some rando says your kid's a moron. So what? You just stop talking to that person or caring what that idiot has to say. You concern yourself with your kid and only your kid... and you let other people blow whatever smoke they feel like blowing. You don't let them take up residence in your brain... because once you do that you NEVER get any peace of mind.

What's done is done. All you can do is just not care that it was. Because goodness knows nobody else cares that you seem to.

 

[jasper]

Why is this needed? Do you need an official lore reason to have crossovers between the campaign systems? In the 80s I remember dc/marvel crossovers I think titans and xmen. Star Trek and Next gene crossovers. Dogs and Cats living together. Why waste ink and skull sweat and just say you can travel between here and there. And there to here.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Planescape the actual campaign setting (and not the cosmology framework that existed before the campaign setting itself exist) is one that leaned quite heavily into Postmodernism. It certainly presented the idea that the planes could be shaped by belief, and there were always things out there that weren't easily explainable. Three of it's essential ideas or themes were "Rule of Threes", "Unity of Rings" and "Centre of All", and generally were things that they tried to fit into many of it's adventures.

"Unity of Rings" could be the idea that everything goes back to where it started eventually in some thematic way, it could likely represent the boundaries of everything, and likely informs a lot ideas about how the planes are structured even though that's a strongly objective idea.

"Rule of Threes" is the theme that makes the least sense, as it often if there's two things always look for a third. But often fit into the idea that there's two extremes and something in between such as Good/Evil/Neutral and Chaos/Law/Neutral.

"Rule of Threes" and "Unity of Rings" do fit together to explain the D&D alignment system in Planescape terms.

"Centre of All" is the idea that wherever you are is the centre of the multiverse. It certainly was the cornerstone of the Sign of One faction, who's entire membership all believed they were the multiverse themselves and that everything only existed in their minds. It could mean someone from a back-water world is right about one thing, but that also a veteran Planewalker is right about some things too. It could also mean that whatever the PCs do themselves is all that matters.

When all three of them were applied together, it could make things very contradictory, or maybe not at all. But in many ways I feel that Planescape strongly relied on contradictions too.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Sometimes you just have to admit that Mama doesn't love you most. But while Mama is busy with the kid she loves more, you are free to go outside and play. That is pretty much Eberron in 5e. Maybe at some point in the future, there will be an AP or novel about people from other settings coming to Eberron to buy cheap magical items mass produced in sweat shops, but maybe not either. Until then, you are free to enjoy all kinds of stuff on the Dms Guild. I suspect you are perfectly safe until D&D the Movie III: Drizzt in Eberron, after which 99% of everyone who ever heard of the setting will know you can spelljam your way there.

 

[Aldarc]

But then let me ask this question... so some rando has already called your kid a moron.

Except it's not a "rando," as per your repetition, but, rather a figure of authority and authorship. It's one of the creative leads, writers, and developers. It's their stroke of the pen that decides whether your kid is a moron rather than you deciding if their assessment is wrong or not. They have the ability to warp the reality of your child.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Except it's not a "rando," as per your repetition, but, rather a figure of authority and authorship. It's one of the creative leads, writers, and developers. It's their stroke of the pen that decides whether your kid is a moron rather than you deciding if their assessment is wrong or not. They have the ability to warp the reality of your child.

Again, so what?

Why does what Jeremy Crawford has to say have any impact on anything a player does at their table?

This is exactly like all the players in the previous edition who completely freaked out when the folks writing D&D said "Everything is Core." Because now suddenly they had this inane belief that their own desires for what books allowed to be used in their game were no longer valid and they had to submit to what the "people on high" chose for them. That was silly then, and it's still silly now.

And besides, none of this changes the fact that it's already happened. They've already said there's a multiverse. So everyone is stuck with it. Sorry. At this point if you don't want to go along with it... you ignore them. Just like every single one of us does every day with regards to the parts of the game we don't like. And if you are incapable of doing that... well, sorry. But it's not going to stop Jeremy, Mike & Company from coming up with new stuff just because an isolated few can't handle it.

 

[gyor]

Planescape the actual campaign setting (and not the cosmology framework that existed before the campaign setting itself exist) is one that leaned quite heavily into Postmodernism. It certainly presented the idea that the planes could be shaped by belief, and there were always things out there that weren't easily explainable. Three of it's essential ideas or themes were "Rule of Threes", "Unity of Rings" and "Centre of All", and generally were things that they tried to fit into many of it's adventures.

"Unity of Rings" could be the idea that everything goes back to where it started eventually in some thematic way, it could likely represent the boundaries of everything, and likely informs a lot ideas about how the planes are structured even though that's a strongly objective idea.

"Rule of Threes" is the theme that makes the least sense, as it often if there's two things always look for a third. But often fit into the idea that there's two extremes and something in between such as Good/Evil/Neutral and Chaos/Law/Neutral.

"Rule of Threes" and "Unity of Rings" do fit together to explain the D&D alignment system in Planescape terms.

"Centre of All" is the idea that wherever you are is the centre of the multiverse. It certainly was the cornerstone of the Sign of One faction, who's entire membership all believed they were the multiverse themselves and that everything only existed in their minds. It could mean someone from a back-water world is right about one thing, but that also a veteran Planewalker is right about some things too. It could also mean that whatever the PCs do themselves is all that matters.

When all three of them were applied together, it could make things very contradictory, or maybe not at all. But in many ways I feel that Planescape strongly relied on contradictions too.

I wouldn't mention any connection to post modernism, post modernism is in the midst of a huge back lash, I would prefer Planescape not end up in the middle of that.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

@Polyhedral Columbia

I was thinking about your suggestion to make Spelljammer phlogiston its own plane (in addition to ethereal, etcetera).

It can work. Essentially, the Phlogistonic Plane has to be moreorless the same thing as ‘hyperspace’. It has to be, because the ships must be traveling faster-than-light to reach the farflung worlds. In this phlogistonic hyperspace small distances within this plane equate to vast distances in the material plane.

Looking into ‘hyperspace’, I was disappointed that there is almost no reallife science behind it. It is mostly a technobabble plot device to get characters from one solar system to an other that is lightyears away. I was surprised there is virtually no science, because ‘hard’ science fiction writers invented hyperspace and utilize it in their stories. I was also surprised because there are comparable reallife science, such as wormholes and so on, to travel lightyears away.

Anyway, as a plot device a common trope is, strong *gravity* disrupts the hyperspace. So if a vessel gets too close to the gravity of a sun, the gravity yanks them out of hyperspace and into our space-time.



So for the purposes of D&D ...

From the perspective of being inside the plane of phlogiston, these solar gravity spheres look like ‘shells’ and direct contact with them immediately exits the phlogistonic plane and enters the material plane.

As such, these ‘crystal spheres’ are in fact made out of the force of gravity.



Planes that are ‘sealed off’, like Dark Sun and Eberron, might do it by reversing the gravity that exists within the phlogistonic plane. So that while gravity works normally for a solar system within the material plane, the gravity pushes instead of pulls within the phlogistonic plane. This makes it difficult or impossible for phlogistonic ships to approach these ‘sealed’ spheres of gravity.

Yeah, well said. Right...the Phlogiston Plane would be the Hyperspace of the D&D Multiverse. Exactly!

Still, how would you keep the existing lore about the details of the surface of the crystal spheres themselves? Some are very detailed...like there's beings who walk around on the crystal and stuff. Would this be happening in the Phlogistonic Plane? If you have to drop out of Phlogiston in order to enter the crystal sphere, how would people be able to interact with stuff which lies on the inside surface of the crystal sphere? Maybe the immediate inside vicinity of the crystal wall is the "Border Phlogiston"?

In either case, if you're not in the Border Phlogiston or Deep Phlogiston, you just see black empty space at the edge of the solar system. (?)

But if you're in the Phlogiston Plane, you see all the cool weird crystal wall and flat pools of radiance, as described in Spellammer. The radiant, flat "stars" on the crystal sphere are only a 2D locus for the 3D stars which lie far distant in the Material Plane.

BTW, to tap Neo-Platonic worldview, the Phlogiston could also be called the Empyrean "in the fire". The fire which lies beyond the Firmament. In contrast, the Phlogiston was simply the flammable potential in every earthly object. Empyrean is even closer to the D&D usage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empyrean

 

[Kobold Boots]

So everyone in Eberron is ignorant? They have had mages and scholars exploring the depths of creation, and they just have no idea there is a world beyond there own?


How are people who are ignorant of a world beyond their own generally depicted in literature and media? My experience, it generally isn't a positive portrayal. because they must learn "THE TRUTH"

I expect that when we eventually find worlds with sentient life other than our own we will have been sufficiently ignorant of them prior to discovering them. That will have been after 10000 years plus of scholarly pursuits (applied and theory).

I don't expect that it's that much of a reach to support ignorance given our example.

 

[Aldarc]

Again, so what?

Why does what Jeremy Crawford has to say have any impact on anything a player does at their table?

So what, indeed. Why does Eberron's inhabitants need to be depicted as ignorant sods? Why does Eberron need to be connected to the multiverse? So what if it isn't part of the multiverse? So what if it has a different cosmology than the Great Wheel? So what if it's not reconciled with the rest of the D&D multiverse?