Missing Rules

[Kobold Boots]

Well, yeah, that's the whole point of the thread. The rules say you can possible jump farther than your strength would normally allow, without telling you how to determine difficulty or otherwise adjudicate it. Hence "incomplete."

I appreciate what you're saying here but it misses the point I was making.

If at max strength allowed in the game for the race of the character, the character still would not make the jump.. the character can not do it without some sort of assistance regardless of how well the player rolls. So you have some basis for how to judge the matter distance wise (any distance to the max allowable strength) and DC wise (split the distances up to max DC and apply appropriately)

Just because something isn't explicitly stated in the rules to cover a specific situation, does not mean that you can't operate within or combine the rules as written to come out with a logical answer. I do agree that coming up with such a thing on the fly is tough because you're trying to conserve time and handle something to the tastes of a bunch of people at the table, so I'm not saying anyone should have come up with such a thought process in the moment.

However, as you DM and gain experience over time, these things become easier, it's like the difference between being fluent in a language and actually thinking in the language. While the above came naturally to me in looking at your question, I doubt it would have five years ago.

We just have different thoughts about what is and what is not "incomplete."

Thanks,
KB

 

[clearstream]

Some things. First, I thought a 20 strength was the most you could have without receiving epic boons. Level 8 seems a bit low to be receiving those.

Sure. I think the purpose of testing the bounds is to find an extreme, but plausible, case. Let's call it 24 Strength, but tier 3, so +7 +8 = +15 ability.

Second, if you are starting at DC 5, then DC 30 increases to 18 feet additional. With a 24 strength, 18 additional feet, plus an additional 7 feet for strength modified of a champion, you have this half orc leaping 49 feet with a DC 30. 20 feet farther than the current world record. That seems excessive to me.

There are lots of things in heroic fantasy that seem excessive to me. A Tier 3 Half-Orc Champion Prodigy (Athletics), with Epic Strength leaping 49' is not one of them. Especially not when the Dragonborn "Dragoon" Warlock is jumping further!

Third, I'm not sure you understand how weak a 3 strength is. A pixie has a 2, a pseudodragon which fits on a book has a 6, a sprite has a 3, and a stirge has a 4. These are creatures whose size is measured in inches, not feet and they are still stronger than the human wizard you are referencing. Heck, even a house cat has a 3. A house cat can jump 8 feet, and they are not only physically built for jumping(unlike the wizard), but only weigh about 5 pounds(also unlike the wizard). Increasing a 3 strength wizard's leap from 3 feet to 4 would be a major undertaking. Allowing a wizard to go up to 9 feet or 3x his normal distance is like allowing the above barbarian to go 72 feet.

I did consider that, and I am mindful of what 3 Strength entails. Two factors that weigh on this for me are 1) what is the pay off for added complication? and 2) could it be problematic at the table if weak creatures can't jump far? The answer to 1, for me, is that I don't really see any pay off. We get a more realistic version of something that is unrealistic in the first place. The answer to 2 is that how far characters need to jump is up to me as DM (I created the pit, chasm, etc they must jump, after all!) For things like jumping, swimming and climbing, I think the bigger risk is that weaker characters are too far from stronger characters, than that they are nearer. One ends up mandating that players help each other with a rope or whatever, in which case the weak character's jump is unimportant. I'd have more fun if the weak character gave it a try and plunged to their doom. I'm also mindful that the Cleric will throw in Guidance, the Monk will Step of the Wind, the Warlock will Otherworldly Leap, the Wizard might cast Jump, and the Bard throw Bardic Inspiration.

I did point out that scaling percentually could make more sense than a flat add, but a flat add is more streamlined. Steps of 3' feel decent. One could start at DC 5 and go steps of 2', but then nearly impossible is +12 not +15. Maybe that is better?

 

[Hriston]

Actually, the highest for the NBA draft is also 46". D. J. Stephens set the vertical leap record in 2013 at 46 inches (1.17 m). His standing leap was 40".

Okay, I missed the 40" standing vertical jump, but the NFL combine record of 46", set by Gerald Sensabaugh in 2005, is for a standing vertical jump, not a running vertical jump, beating Stephens's NBA draft combine record by 6".

 

[Hriston]

I like it! The payoff for a flat add in ease of use and fixing the High Strength DC barrier looks well justified.

However one tweak - as you have it, starting at DC 10 - your idea is complicated to express as a rule. Let's start at DC 5. Do we really care if characters can jump 3' more? With that, one can then express the rule -

Long jump = "With a running start the DC is 5 per 3' further than your usual distance, or per 1' without."
High jump = "With a running start the DC is 5 per 6" higher than your usual distance, or per 3" without."

I think allowing a Level 8 Half-Orc Champion with Strength 24, Athletics and Prodigy, an automatic jump (succeeds on 1+) of 37' instead of 34' is basically fine. While at the other end, allowing a Level 1 Human Wizard with Strength 3 to clear 6' with 9+ and 9' with 14+ is probably a good idea.

The reason I have for starting with DC 10 is that I assume a character's normal jump is a very easy task (DC 5), and that the PHB is basically following the advice in the DMG in letting "characters succeed in such a task without making a check."

To express this as a rule, I'd tweak my numbers a little and use the following formulae:

For a running long jump, the DC is 5 + 3 for every 2 feet you attempt in addition to your normal distance.

For a standing long jump, the DC is 5 + 5 for each foot you attempt in addition to your normal distance.

For a running high jump, the DC is 5 + 1 for each inch you attempt in addition to your normal distance.

For a standing high jump, the DC is 5 + 2 for each inch you attempt in addition to your normal distance.

 

[clearstream]

The reason I have for starting with DC 10 is that I assume a character's normal jump is a very easy task (DC 5), and that the PHB is basically following the advice in the DMG in letting "characters succeed in such a task without making a check."

To express this as a rule, I'd tweak my numbers a little and use the following formulae:

For a running long jump, the DC is 5 + 3 for every 2 feet you attempt in addition to your normal distance.

For a standing long jump, the DC is 5 + 5 for each foot you attempt in addition to your normal distance.

For a running high jump, the DC is 5 + 1 for each inch you attempt in addition to your normal distance.

For a standing high jump, the DC is 5 + 2 for each inch you attempt in addition to your normal distance.

I was thinking about the fact that, as I use a battle map, jumps are often in whole squares (units of 5'). Maybe DC 10 per extra square is okay? For long jump distance.

 

[Maxperson]

There are lots of things in heroic fantasy that seem excessive to me. A Tier 3 Half-Orc Champion Prodigy (Athletics), with Epic Strength leaping 49' is not one of them. Especially not when the Dragonborn "Dragoon" Warlock is jumping further!

I'm sure we just have different thresholds for realism. 49 feet is beyond the pale for me without magic, vestigial wings, or something else to aid the leap.

I did consider that, and I am mindful of what 3 Strength entails. Two factors that weigh on this for me are 1) what is the pay off for added complication? and 2) could it be problematic at the table if weak creatures can't jump far? The answer to 1, for me, is that I don't really see any pay off. We get a more realistic version of something that is unrealistic in the first place.

For me the added realism is its own payoff. I don't want to mirror reality, but the farther a game gets from reality with regard to the mundane aspects of that game, the less I enjoy it. Realistic vs. unrealistic is not a dichotomy. It's a sliding scale, so moving down the scale a bit more than D&D starts at, towards the most realistic end is where I like to be.

The answer to 2 is that how far characters need to jump is up to me as DM (I created the pit, chasm, etc they must jump, after all!) For things like jumping, swimming and climbing, I think the bigger risk is that weaker characters are too far from stronger characters, than that they are nearer. One ends up mandating that players help each other with a rope or whatever, in which case the weak character's jump is unimportant.

God forbid a team actually engage in teamwork.

I really, really like PCs that have strengths and weaknesses. I don't feel the need to give crutches to the PCs to compensate for a weakness. Let the weakness have in impact in the game as something to be overcome, whether through a rope, the jump spell, or some other way. For me that adds a great deal more to the game than giving everyone a chance to be successful at everything.

I did point out that scaling percentually could make more sense than a flat add, but a flat add is more streamlined. Steps of 3' feel decent. One could start at DC 5 and go steps of 2', but then nearly impossible is +12 not +15. Maybe that is better?

Were I to do it that way, I'd make it 1' increments. My preference, though, is to just leave it as is, and that's what I will do when I start running 5e, which should be somewhat soon. I'm excited to start. Back on topic, though, by leaving it unset with DCs and increments, the players are encouraged to come up with ideas like leaping off of rocks, swinging the platforms, etc. Once I have what they describe their character doing, I can rate the DCs and potential ranges very quickly in my head and have the player roll/

 

[Hriston]

I was thinking about the fact that, as I use a battle map, jumps are often in whole squares (units of 5'). Maybe DC 10 per extra square is okay? For long jump distance.

I thought about that too, but since normal jump distance is already given in increments of 1 foot or less, I wasn’t sure if 5 foot increments would be all that useful. Maybe I don’t play on a grid often enough. For a running long jump, however, I’d go with DC 12 to add 5 feet to your jump, DC 20 to add 10 feet, and DC 27 to add 15 feet. For a standing long jump, I’d put adding 5 feet to your jump at DC 28.

 

[clearstream]

I thought about that too, but since normal jump distance is already given in increments of 1 foot or less, I wasn’t sure if 5 foot increments would be all that useful. Maybe I don’t play on a grid often enough. For a running long jump, however, I’d go with DC 12 to add 5 feet to your jump, DC 20 to add 10 feet, and DC 27 to add 15 feet. For a standing long jump, I’d put adding 5 feet to your jump at DC 28.

Indeed, which brought me around to possibly -

Long jump—with a running start the DC is 2 per foot over your usual distance, or 4 per foot without.

High jump = with a running start the DC is 1 per inch over your usual distance, or 2 per inch without.

This matches your table fairly well, but with a streamlined method for setting DC. For standing jumps, I'm suggesting doubling the DC instead of halving the distance. It will amount to the same thing, in terms of what a character can achieve. The translation that has happened is essentially - take the principle of DC = distance, but split it so half will be baseline and half will be overage; and in reciprocation double DCs so extra feet are +2 instead of +1.