5e invisibility and Detect Magic

[Ovinomancer]

They are not the same. A perception check to notice a hidden enemy will reveal the enemy. A perception check to notice an oddity only reveals an oddity. Oddities are pointed out via rolls by me all the time. Sometimes they mean something significant. Other times they are just the effect of something and are nothing more than an oddity. To actually reveal the enemy they would have to engage the oddity somehow, feeling around the area, tossing a pebble into that area, or the like.



Me, too, except when the hide rules are deficient. Invisibility gives you the perfect ability to be unseen. Being absolutely still gives you perfect silence. That combination makes you undetectable in a direct manner, which is what perception vs. hide is for. The hide rules don't work well for detecting a perfectly hidden creature.

The rules aren't deficient here. If you decide your golems are absolutely still and silent, don't roll. If you roll, don't decide the golem is perfectly still and silent before you see the result. The deficiency here is deciding your golem is silent, then rolling, and then having to reconcile a failed roll against your undectable golem decision.

 

[Oofta]

The rules aren't deficient here. If you decide your golems are absolutely still and silent, don't roll. If you roll, don't decide the golem is perfectly still and silent before you see the result. The deficiency here is deciding your golem is silent, then rolling, and then having to reconcile a failed roll against your undectable golem decision.

Let's assume a highly unlikely scenario for a moment. Well, nearly as unlikely as the invisible iron golem.

A creature is invisible and in an area of silence (which doesn't include the PCs and doesn't block enough noise to be noticed). It can't be seen or heard. As a DM, I don't like auto-surprise though so I want the PCs to have a chance to notice it. There's some interaction with the environment that can be perceived. Cobwebs, a bird sitting on something that can't be seen, footprints in the mud, something.

How would you handle it? Because I agree with [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]. I'd decide on a DC unrelated to stealth because the hide rules don't really apply to the situation.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Let's assume a highly unlikely scenario for a moment. Well, nearly as unlikely as the invisible iron golem.

A creature is invisible and in an area of silence (which doesn't include the PCs and doesn't block enough noise to be noticed). It can't be seen or heard. As a DM, I don't like auto-surprise though so I want the PCs to have a chance to notice it. There's some interaction with the environment that can be perceived. Cobwebs, a bird sitting on something that can't be seen, footprints in the mud, something.

How would you handle it? Because I agree with [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]. I'd decide on a DC unrelated to stealth because the hide rules don't really apply to the situation.

Soumds like you've got a handle on things. This also doesn't look like a good place e for a INT(cooking) check.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Personally i would still rely on Stealth rules as i would contest a DC against perception to notice the silent and invisible creature that i determine was not automatically noticeable. The creature here is still essentially escaping notice somehow, whether actively or passively (i could set a DC or use passive Stealth) I would have the exception on how the creature become hidden by being automatically achieved due to environmental/magical effects making it unseen and unheard, rather than it actively becoming in the same state using an action to attempt to. But Stealth would still be the game element at works, so that if other creatures nearby have game elements such as feats or features working for or against hide, it could still apply.

 

[Oofta]

Personally i would still rely on Stealth rules as i would contest a DC against perception to notice the silent and invisible creature that i determine was not automatically noticeable. The creature here is still essentially escaping notice somehow, whether actively or passively (i could set a DC or use passive Stealth) I would have the exception on how the creature become hidden by being automatically achieved due to environmental/magical effects making it unseen and unheard, rather than it actively becoming in the same state using an action to attempt to. But Stealth would still be the game element at works, so that if other creatures nearby have game elements such as feats or features working for or against hide, it could still apply.

Are there any feats or features that work specifically vs being hidden? I don't remember any, the ones I can think of apply in general to perception.

I don't ever expect this to come up in a game ... closest would be noticing a gargoyle was a gargoyle instead of a statue. Even though gargoyles have the ability to appear to be statues there could still be some indication something isn't right ... if for example one of the statues was dry because it just came from inside while the others got wet in a recent rain.

 

[smbakeresq]

Personally i would still rely on Stealth rules as i would contest a DC against perception to notice the silent and invisible creature that i determine was not automatically noticeable. The creature here is still essentially escaping notice somehow, whether actively or passively (i could set a DC or use passive Stealth) I would have the exception on how the creature become hidden by being automatically achieved due to environmental/magical effects making it unseen and unheard, rather than it actively becoming in the same state using an action to attempt to. But Stealth would still be the game element at works, so that if other creatures nearby have game elements such as feats or features working for or against hide, it could still apply.

I get what you are saying. However, the way I see passive perception used (always on, so the minute you open the door everyone gets a check, invisibility and silence are no exception as they claim they see something amiss, like cobwebs as described above) very few creatures will ever be able to beat the groups passive perception checks. Monsters are not set up that way. A group will always have at least one PC with 15 passive perception at level 1, that's wisdom 16 with proficiency in Perception. A variant human with observant will have passive perception 20, at level 1, that PC at level 1 will always notice an invisible stalker using a passive stealth check (20), clearly that's not right. When you look through monsters you realize almost none of them will be able to escape the PC notice.

By using it that way you will get into a situation wherein the DM will tell PCs its not a passive check situation and then they feel railroaded (happens all the time, see it in games in shops.) They are "surprised" that they got surprised in some way even if the opponent is highly magical fantasy creature that relies on stealth exclusively. I see the response of just telling the players its a set encounter and thus a railroad job, that's not true but that doesn't help either. I can see that by the responses here some would act that way.

There are some situations that passive perception isn't the be all to end all, and the players just get surprised because the enemy has intelligence and wisdom and special abilities and it fits a narrative to get the drop on them. As above, what do you do with an invisible creature in a loud room; would you let a player state "I am listening for differential sounds that are out of place or dust and cobwebs flowing in unusual patterns to see what's in the room so I deserve a passive or active perception check to detect if anything is invisible and silent?" I have seen that happen at tables in the game stores also, people arguing that the monster should get one free attack in before it gives away its position.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Are there any feats or features that work specifically vs being hidden?

They are some such as Feral Senses, Alert, Exploration rules (see Noticing a Threat), Surprise rules, Unseen Attackers & Target rules (this rule specifically mention location revealing when attacking) etc..

 

[Oofta]

They are some such as Feral Senses, Alert, Exploration rules (see Noticing a Threat), Surprise rules, Unseen Attackers & Target rules (this rule specifically mention location revealing when attacking) etc..

Not sure where Feral Senses comes from (Feral Instinct?) but alert feat just means you can't be surprised.

This argument has never been about who may be surprised as far as I am concerned, it was just taking an extreme example that if you cannot see or hear an opponent it's going to be difficult to perceive them unless they are interacting with the environment in some perceivable way.

What happens during the first round of combat is a separate issue.

 

[Hriston]

Sure. Aliens could have beamed down and hit the golem with an anti-golem destabilizer. Reasonable explanations? Not sure common as you make out. A drafty castle and those noises are from other things like creaking timbers and other things that would make noise. The drafts don't make noise unless the wind is strong, or the author doesn't know anything about wind.

Plenty of reasonable explanations for the golem getting noticed have been suggested. And yes, I was positing a strong wind. It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that a strong wind occurs.

I cite dex and golems. You seem to be confusing slow with bumbling incompetence at moving. Do you really require PCs with an 8 dex to trip and stumble whenever they walk. Do you force them to knock over drinks with imprecise arm movements? I suspect not.

No, but I generally do require them to make a DEX (Stealth) check, contested by the WIS (Perception) check of anyone keeping watch, in order to stay hidden. That isn't incompetence. It's the baseline. There's nothing in the golem entry that suggests they're exempt from that.

The boulders would quickly settle in and stop moving.

You're going to have to provide more detail about how you're getting the boulders to settle in to the shape of a golem for this to be useful. Otherwise, there's just a pile of rocks, which tells us nothing about how wind can affect a golem.

 

[Hriston]

No. You just don't seem to understand that the rules don't encompass every situation, and that golems don't fit the stealth rules very well. You can cludge them in and just run them like any living creature with a 9 dex, but some of us don't want to do that.

I don't think anyone has said you have to. If you don't think an iron golem can involuntarily do anything to get noticed, then don't call for a check to see if it's noticed.

I don't think those of us that would call for that check are using a cludge.