5e invisibility and Detect Magic

[Maxperson]

Max, we can scroll up to see that tge post I responded to ended with you saying, "the hide rules don't work well fir a oerfectly hidden creature." To which I responded that if you decide the creature is perfectly hidden, don't roll and the rules work fine. It seems I'm doing a perfectly fine job of following the conversation you're having, if maybe not the one you want to have but have rolled poorly for.

Okay, but since I and those I'm discussing with haven't mentioned making a decision and then also rolling, when you decide to join us we can discuss this further.

 

[Hriston]

The whole point of the "invisible iron golem" discussion is that it is not a living creature. When not commanded to do something it sits there unmoving like a statue.

This is just a difference in the way you're imagining the golem. There's nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't mean it's the only way to imagine a golem. The flavor text that was posted up-thread by @smbakeresq states merely that a golem without orders continues to follow its last set of orders, and if unable to do so, is just as likely to become violent as it is to "stand and do nothing". That opens up the field of what the golem might be doing pretty wide. Even then, standing and doing nothing doesn't mean the golem is doing anything different than any other creature that's standing and doing nothing. It doesn't mean that the golem is standing as still as a statue, or that it's perfectly silent. Those are things you're imagining. There's nothing wrong with imagining it that way, but it isn't the only way to do it.

Much like a gargoyle which apparently you seem to believe cannot sit still if invisible.

An invisible gargoyle can sit still, but I prefer to leave whether it does to the result of its DEX check. You seem to think DEX checks are only for creatures that can't sit still.

With no movement dexterity is irrelevant.

This reveals a difference in our games. You seem to take a character's action declaration to remain motionless as a guarantee that it will not inadvertently make any noises, so that all that's necessary to remain unnoticed is to be in conditions that allow you to be unseen and then to declare an intention to stay silent and still. I suppose you only ask for a DEX check if a character is attempting to move stealthily, and not if it's hiding in place. I, on the other hand, don’t tie stealth to movement. Whether a character is hiding in a single location or sneaking through an area, to remain unnoticed by potential observers who are alert, the character must at least tie with a DEX (Stealth) check its enemies’ passive Perception scores.

If you cannot see a creature and if invisibility works perfectly without distortion you have to have some other sense to detect it: it's interacting with it's environment in a noticeable way*, you can hear it clearly, by touching it.

Yup, in the case of the creature failing its DEX check, the one I usually go to is hearing, although there are certain ways of interacting with the environment such as shouting or making other loud noises, leaving obvious tracks to your location, or trying to hide in a spot that you are known to inhabit, that for me would rule out the possibility of success.

Seriously, run it however you want. Time to move on.

I’m not sure if it’s intentional, but this is the second time you’ve said something like this that’s given me the impression you’re trying to get me to shut up. I’ll decide when I’m ready to move on from this topic, thank you.

*EDIT: samples of interacting with the environment might include but are not limited to: an impression on the ground if it's soft, flattened leaves with the impression of feet, tracks in the snow, a hole in water, spider webs, a bird sitting on something invisible, a layer of dust on the golem, bugs bouncing off something they cannot see, swirling dust stirred up by wind.

That’s right, I’d forgotten you mentioned spider webs. Thanks for this. I’m just wondering why you’ve argued against the possibility of the golem being detected when you admit there are so many ways that could happen.

 

[Oofta]

I’m just wondering why you’ve argued against the possibility of the golem being detected when you admit there are so many ways that could happen.

If a golem is walking toward you, you could easily hear it before you see it. If it's an inanimate unmoving statue, stealth rules probably don't apply. Other checks may apply as determined by the DM.

If something (or some creature) cannot be clearly seen or is disguised, it's always up to the DM to decide if stealth rules apply. It doesn't matter if it's a bear sleeping in the woods, a possessed doll on a shelf or an invisible golem. Taking the hide action by making a stealth role is not the only way to be undetected.

If the stealth rules don't apply the DM has to decide if it can be detected, how, and what the DC is.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Not sure where Feral Senses comes from (Feral Instinct?) but alert feat just means you can't be surprised.

Not Alert doesn't just mean that, tt also mean that other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you. Feral Senses is a Ranger class feature specifically dealing with invisible creature not hidden. Those feat or features interact with hidden creatures and therefore creature not noticeable but otherwise not hidden don't specifically interact with them.

This argument has never been about who may be surprised as far as I am concerned, it was just taking an extreme example that if you cannot see or hear an opponent it's going to be difficult to perceive them unless they are interacting with the environment in some perceivable way.

The point i was making is that many game elements interact with being hidden specifically, such as Surprise and having creature not noticeable but otherwise not hidden means they don't interact with those rule that specifically call for or against hidden.

So my point was that i'd rely on Stealth rules anyhow that's all.

 

[Maxperson]

If a golem is walking toward you, you could easily hear it before you see it. If it's an inanimate unmoving statue, stealth rules probably don't apply. Other checks may apply as determined by the DM.

If something (or some creature) cannot be clearly seen or is disguised, it's always up to the DM to decide if stealth rules apply. It doesn't matter if it's a bear sleeping in the woods, a possessed doll on a shelf or an invisible golem. Taking the hide action by making a stealth role is not the only way to be undetected.

If the stealth rules don't apply the DM has to decide if it can be detected, how, and what the DC is.

This is where I'm going to disagree with you. Living creatures breathe and move, even when sleeping, and they cannot keep perfectly still for long periods of time as muscles just don't work that way. Some snore. An invisible bear could be heard, even if sleeping in the woods. Golems, possessed dolls and even undead, don't have those issues.

 

[Oofta]

Not Alert doesn't just mean that, tt also mean that other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you. Feral Senses is a Ranger class feature specifically dealing with invisible creature not hidden. Those feat or features interact with hidden creatures and therefore creature not noticeable but otherwise not hidden don't specifically interact with them.

The point i was making is that many game elements interact with being hidden specifically, such as Surprise and having creature not noticeable but otherwise not hidden means they don't interact with those rule that specifically call for or against hidden.

So my point was that i'd rely on Stealth rules anyhow that's all.

I agree that you can't be surprised if you have alert. You can always act during the first round of combat even if no one else saw it coming. There are times when surprise has nothing to do with stealth. It could be someone in disguise suddenly pulling weapons and attacking which would be deception vs insight for example.

As far as the rest, it just states that "Other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being unseen by you." Being unseen can be due to many things, not just stealth checks. Your PC could be blind, or being attacked by a creature that can see you in a well lit area while they're in the dark shadows, etc.

 

[Maxperson]

Not Alert doesn't just mean that, tt also mean that other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you. Feral Senses is a Ranger class feature specifically dealing with invisible creature not hidden. Those feat or features interact with hidden creatures and therefore creature not noticeable but otherwise not hidden don't specifically interact with them.

The point i was making is that many game elements interact with being hidden specifically, such as Surprise and having creature not noticeable but otherwise not hidden means they don't interact with those rule that specifically call for or against hidden.

So my point was that i'd rely on Stealth rules anyhow that's all.

So I was going to look up Feral Senses to see what the wording was and I found this.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/21/is-feral-sense-pointless/

Jeremy Crawford [MENTION=4036]Jeremy[/MENTION]ECrawford
· Nov 23, 2014
Replying to @wax_eagle
@wax_eagle Being hidden is the by-the-book way to conceal your position.The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.

So a perfectly still and noiseless golem that was invisible would still be undetectable by Feral Senses. That makes sense since if you are blind or deaf, you cannot detect an invisible creature, and making no noise equates to being unable to hear noises(deafness).

 

[Oofta]

This is where I'm going to disagree with you. Living creatures breathe and move, even when sleeping, and they cannot keep perfectly still for long periods of time as muscles just don't work that way. Some snore. An invisible bear could be heard, even if sleeping in the woods. Golems, possessed dolls and even undead, don't have those issues.

I've encountered bears in the woods (mountains in Montana) and while seeing them scared the **** out of me for a moment, and hearing something tromping around in the brush that you can't see is kind of terrifying there was no time when it was close enough to hear it breath. Unless you're DareDevil, I doubt you would hear it's breathing over ambient noise until it was on top of you. At which point you've probably noticed it anyway. Unless of course it's "huffing" and making noise on purpose.

Try it sometime. In a crowded room where you aren't packed in like sardines, tell me if you can hear anyone breathing. Unless it's a gym, I would guess no.

The way i would rule is that breathing (especially while asleep) doesn't really have anything to do with dexterity and is therefore a different DC that I would set based on the environment, whether I think they would snore, and size of the creature. A sleeping dragon is going to move a lot more air and make a lot more noise than a sleeping pixie.

Perfectly fine to rule differently of course.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I agree that you can't be surprised if you have alert. You can always act during the first round of combat even if no one else saw it coming. There are times when surprise has nothing to do with stealth. It could be someone in disguise suddenly pulling weapons and attacking which would be deception vs insight for example.

As far as the rest, it just states that "Other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being unseen by you." Being unseen can be due to many things, not just stealth checks. Your PC could be blind, or being attacked by a creature that can see you in a well lit area while they're in the dark shadows, etc.

My PHB says :''Other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you.'' That's why i said that i forgot the errata for it

EDITED

 

[Plaguescarred]

So I was going to look up Feral Senses to see what the wording was and I found this.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/21/is-feral-sense-pointless/

Jeremy Crawford [MENTION=4036]Jeremy[/MENTION]ECrawford
· Nov 23, 2014
Replying to @wax_eagle
@wax_eagle Being hidden is the by-the-book way to conceal your position.The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.

So a perfectly still and noiseless golem that was invisible would still be undetectable by Feral Senses. That makes sense since if you are blind or deaf, you cannot detect an invisible creature, and making no noise equates to being unable to hear noises(deafness).

The DM may decide anything of course, but RAW many game elements specifically interact with no other way than hidden as a way to conceal your position. DM would need to more even more ruling than if using Stealth to achieve the same desired result.

I just think it's much easier to use hide. Especially to avoid noticing an invisible golem standing still, or someone unseen and unheard by factors not his own, if the goal here remains the same, to have a creature the DM think is unseen, unheard and also otherwise unoticeable.