Ridding Elves and Half-Elves of Darkvision

[Charlaquin]

I guess it just bugs me that you’re insisting that the “see as if in bright light within 60ft no matter what” interpretation is a natural reading. IMO, it is entirely dependent on going multiple steps down an extrapolation spiral, which inherently makes it not intuitive or natural.

I’ve seen many players read it as darkvision out to the horizon. I’ve never seen anyone else interpret it as giving full vision in darkness within the radius.

I dunno, it was intuitive to me. Maybe I just process that kind of extrapolation more easily than most? I dunno, but like I said, I’ll grant that it is not the way everyone intuitively interprets the text, but I don’t think it’s especially unintuitive, and it’s certainly more technically accurate. But, sure, I guess it’s fair to say that it’s not the most intuitive reading, even if it is how I intuitively read it.

Which I guess means I’m just doing the thing I despise, and being pedantic. Which means I’m wrong even if I’m right, because pedantry is always stupid and useless. So, sorry. Carry on.

No worries. If you were being pedantic, so was I, so sorry about my part in it as well.

 

[5ekyu]

I find that players often think Darkvision is more powerful than it is, and don't bother to carry torches or use it as a way to avoid thinking about light sources.
Don't forget some wrinkles about darkvision if your group of players think they are totally fine to run around in the dark.
Darkvision treats darkness as if it were dim light, not bright light. Things are still tough to see in dim light and you can't see color.

From the PHB: "In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight"
Just remind them that they're at disadvantage, have them roll it a few times to see if they are surprised by the monsters while they stumble around in the dungeon. Its amazing what a motivator the disadvantage mechanic is for lighting a torch.

As well as stumbling into the green slime or yellow mold because you can't see color.

It has its uses but... it has its drawbacks too!

But... barring tremorsense, monsters with darkvision and no light have the same issues - so those monsters are as likely to be surprised in many cases yes?

Compare this to carrying lights which give away your presence well before you get close enough that their light helps you see better than dim.

And it's not like vision is the only sense that tells you of things around you - sound and smell go a long way.

I have seen way to many get hung up on vision and light and pretty much treat them as be all end all of encounter setups... and then some wonder why some players exclude non-Dv races so much - it's because they were trained to do so by GMs.

Had a recent game where this was the case and every night varmints seemed to keep popping up at the edge of someone's visual range by light. Even large varmints with net stealth of -1 or worse never got heard on approach. They just appear at the 30' range if that's where the light ended.

My answer to "Does your character have darkvision?" became "No, but they have ears!" to no avail.

 

[clearstream]

I find that players often think Darkvision is more powerful than it is, and don't bother to carry torches or use it as a way to avoid thinking about light sources.
Don't forget some wrinkles about darkvision if your group of players think they are totally fine to run around in the dark.
Darkvision treats darkness as if it were dim light, not bright light. Things are still tough to see in dim light and you can't see color.

From the PHB: "In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight"
Just remind them that they're at disadvantage, have them roll it a few times to see if they are surprised by the monsters while they stumble around in the dungeon. Its amazing what a motivator the disadvantage mechanic is for lighting a torch.

That's true, albeit I think partially it becomes fiddly so DM's rightly hand-wave it.

That thought aside though, that disadvantage hits heavily as it applies a -5 to passive Wisdom (Perception), which is what is used when stumbling around unless slowing considerably to make active checks.

 

[clearstream]

For some reason, when my players all made their characters, there was a slight oversight (no pun intended) in giving the Dragonborn Darkvision. I was told they had it, it made sense (hey, Tieflings get it due to their heritage, why not Dragonborn...), but then recently discovered they don't get it.

Well, that sucks for my players because everyone chose a race purposefully so they all had Darkvision! Now, of course, the Dragonborn doesn't. Since this was my mistake in not checking myself, I'll probably let the player keep it this time.

But, it got me thinking: why do certain races get it and others don't?

To review, these races have Darkvision (or Superior Darkvision): Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, ,Half-Orc, and Tiefling.
These races don't: Halfling, Human, Dragonborn.

Now, I can certainly understand Dwarf, Gnome, and Half-Orc since all of these races do spend quite a bit of time underground. Likewise, I get Drow Elf having it. An argument can be made for the Tiefling's heritage I suppose, but then why not Dragonborns?

And why would the other Elf races and Half-Elf get it? There is no reason why except for a hold-over from earlier editions IMO.

If anyone would like to chime in on this, I'd love to hear your opinions and thanks!

I'd like to chime in reiterating that fog and smoke, are the new dark.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Thanks all for the input. I can understand the Darkvision interpretation debate from either side, and don't think either reading is more sensible than the other. One was the spirit of the ability, the other the literal interpretation of the text. The reading of all darkness as dim lights removes the arbitrary 60" range on total sight distance, instead limiting the bright light from dim to that range. Either works. *shrug*

While I can understand the idea of Elves having "telescopic" vision ("Legolas, what do your elf-eyes see?"), I think making 2 miles seem like 5 feet is a bit extreme IMO, but if it works for you then cool. I like the idea, but I would probably make the mechanic work differently. For me, somewhere around making Elf-eyes 5-10 times more accurate would be more than enough. Since there is no rule for making perception checks at distances (say over 100 feet or something), game mechanic-wise the DM would have to rule when Elf-eyes come into play. Maybe for Perception checks beyond 120 feet, Elves have advantage? Or, if you house-rule any sight-based Perception check beyond 120 feet is at disadvantage, Elf-eyes would counter that.

Right now we're still playing RAW, but I did give the Dragonborn character Darkvision simply because it was also my error from the beginning. The player appreciates it, because he was shocked when I told him Dragonborn normally don't have it. Since I nerfed their Move Speed to 25, it seems like a balanced trade-off.

 

[CapnZapp]

I find that players often think Darkvision is more powerful than it is, and don't bother to carry torches or use it as a way to avoid thinking about light sources.
Don't forget some wrinkles about darkvision if your group of players think they are totally fine to run around in the dark.
Darkvision treats darkness as if it were dim light, not bright light. Things are still tough to see in dim light and you can't see color.

From the PHB: "In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight"
Just remind them that they're at disadvantage, have them roll it a few times to see if they are surprised by the monsters while they stumble around in the dungeon. Its amazing what a motivator the disadvantage mechanic is for lighting a torch.

As well as stumbling into the green slime or yellow mold because you can't see color.

It has its uses but... it has its drawbacks too!

Nah, monsters have abysmal skill scores. You can easily detect monsters even with disadvantage.

On the other hand, being able to travel in total darkness (as a group) is a game changer advantage.

You easily choose dim light over being insta-spotted from miles away (overland) and a hundred yards (in the Underdark).

Tldr: Darkvision isn't particularly powerful on its own. But the absence of it, in a group that otherwise could extinguish their light sources, is a severe handicap.

You are much better served by choosing a Darkvision race in a group that doesn't already consisting of Humans.

And the bottom line: reverting Elves and Gnomes to low-light vision relegates the all-Darkvision party to the sidelines where it belongs!

 

[CapnZapp]

Remember, treating Darkvision as only providing dim light is a 5E invention to justify the removal of low-light vision.

It makes Darkvision far fiddler than it needs to be.

The solution is to restore low-light vision to the game, and drop the gotchas surrounding Darkvision.

Yes, Underdark races do use light. But only within the safety of their settlements!

No sane sentry or watchtower use light, when maintaining a total blackout when you yourself can see in the dark gives you a huge advantage, and keeps your post hidden.

Even the tiniest pinprick of light is instantly visible from far away in blackout conditions.

Human adventurers trying to conceal their lanterns, holding them underneath their cloaks, and so on... Just forget about it.

From the vantage point of a sentry (or lurking monster) this light is instantly visible from far away, much farther than 60 ft.

Carrying a light into a pitch black cave automatically means never surprising anything ever again.

So revert foresty races to low-light vision and do away with easy all-Darkvision parties! emoji846 is gigantic

 

[CapnZapp]

Apparently the gboard keyboard doesn't work with the ENWorld App, creating humongous smilies? Oh well.

 

[Caliburn101]

Everything and its dog has Darkvision in 5th Edition - it's ridiculous - a very foolish design decision. WotC have added to the mass of DV races by adding it in nearly every statblock. It's like a 'filler' ability these days.

They even had to design the Gloom Stalker Ranger so their 'hide the dark' abilities fool Darkvision. Otherwise it would be practically useless.

It was a simplification gone too far, Low Light Vision is easy to run - you see in dim light like bright light... there... done.

In my games none but Underdark races and the right sorts of Monsters have Darkvision, and all relevant PC races etc. have had it replaced with Low Light Vision.

It works much better and takes nothing from the game or the players.

I recommend you replace it too, and enjoy running night ambushes that actually work as intended again.

 

[clearstream]

Everything and its dog has Darkvision in 5th Edition - it's ridiculous - a very foolish design decision. WotC have added to the mass of DV races by adding it in nearly every statblock. It's like a 'filler' ability these days.

They even had to design the Gloom Stalker Ranger so their 'hide the dark' abilities fool Darkvision. Otherwise it would be practically useless.

It was a simplification gone too far, Low Light Vision is easy to run - you see in dim light like bright light... there... done.

In my games none but Underdark races and the right sorts of Monsters have Darkvision, and all relevant PC races etc. have had it replaced with Low Light Vision.

It works much better and takes nothing from the game or the players.

I recommend you replace it too, and enjoy running night ambushes that actually work as intended again.

The great eye-biting plague of '79, also a possibility. But really, just make it a dark and foggy night...