Optimize a single class warlock

[FrogReaver]

Well, sorry for the slight bump in the road lads, I wasn't aiming for a derail there. I don't actually care for the combo much myself as it's generally, as you mention, pretty selfish as far as who benefits. That does not stop it from being a perennial contender in the optimized Warlock voting, which is why I mentioned it.

I would much rather talk about optimizing for control. For urban and intrigue based campaigns the infiltrator/control build is almost too nice to pass on, but that might be my personal tastes peeping through.

Given the amount of interest in the thread - I say derail away. Maybe the derailment will draw a few additional people here to share their thoughts on the original topic as well

 

[Fenris-77]

I guess it was bound to come up. I'm with you on damage dealing though - if that's what I want to do, Warlock isn't how I'm doing it.

When I think back on all the Warlock related threads I've participated in over the last months, I think the issue of short rests is probably the biggest optimizer. Are you going to get two shorts per adventure day? Yes? Great. No? Pick another class.

Past that we are really talking about two major items, well three - pact, spell slots and invocations. Let's tackle pacts further down. The spell slots thing isn't really that complicated - they are high level slots, so make the best use of their value, and make sure you use them. The invocation thing is a little more nuanced. My preference there is to work with the at-will invocations to see what kind of synergy and effect I can work up, mostly combined with skills, feats, and cantrips. I think the per rest invocations are mostly less useful, or at the very least less useful to plan synergies for.

The four at-will invocations that stand out for me get you: disguise self, silent image, alter self, and arcane eye. All of those somewhat mitigate for the infiltrator style build, so that's generally where I go. I like the utility of at-will, and it's easy to build around and get good in-game use out of, even in dungeon crawls, provided there are intelligent monsters involved. I will mention that one way I optimize for that build is to dip 1 to 3 levels in rogue, but that's certainly not a requirement, and I obviously won't be tooting that horn in this thread.

One of the stumbling blocks to the infiltrator build is the reliance on illusion, which is very DM dependent. Provided you have a DM that is going to let you stretch your wings with Illusions, then I think that would be part of my core Warlock build.

Back to pacts as a core chargen decision. Tome or Chain? I like the buffed familiars, but I suspect the Tome for ritual casting is the more useful, as you can still have a normal familiar plus all that ritual casting goodness.

 

[FrogReaver]

I guess it was bound to come up. I'm with you on damage dealing though - if that's what I want to do, Warlock isn't how I'm doing it.

When I think back on all the Warlock related threads I've participated in over the last months, I think the issue of short rests is probably the biggest optimizer. Are you going to get two shorts per adventure day? Yes? Great. No? Pick another class.

Past that we are really talking about two major items, well three - pact, spell slots and invocations. Let's tackle pacts further down. The spell slots thing isn't really that complicated - they are high level slots, so make the best use of their value, and make sure you use them. The invocation thing is a little more nuanced. My preference there is to work with the at-will invocations to see what kind of synergy and effect I can work up, mostly combined with skills, feats, and cantrips. I think the per rest invocations are mostly less useful, or at the very least less useful to plan synergies for.

The four at-will invocations that stand out for me get you: disguise self, silent image, alter self, and arcane eye. All of those somewhat mitigate for the infiltrator style build, so that's generally where I go. I like the utility of at-will, and it's easy to build around and get good in-game use out of, even in dungeon crawls, provided there are intelligent monsters involved. I will mention that one way I optimize for that build is to dip 1 to 3 levels in rogue, but that's certainly not a requirement, and I obviously won't be tooting that horn in this thread.

One of the stumbling blocks to the infiltrator build is the reliance on illusion, which is very DM dependent. Provided you have a DM that is going to let you stretch your wings with Illusions, then I think that would be part of my core Warlock build.

Back to pacts as a core chargen decision. Tome or Chain? I like the buffed familiars, but I suspect the Tome for ritual casting is the more useful, as you can still have a normal familiar plus all that ritual casting goodness.

So let's take the infiltrator concept. Wouldn't a sorcerer do it better than a warlock? You obviously don't get at will spells, but really - how many disgueses and illusions are you going to need to use to infiltrate a place?

Not to mention, you presumably the sorcerer can cast invisiblity/fly/suggestion/etc more often in the infiltration attempt if needed (as your likely not to be short resting on that mission).

Despite the hard limit on resources - I really think that a tier 2 sorcerer will have more success infiltrating and getting out of a place moreso than a tier 2 warlock (not to mention the utility of subtle spell when it comes to illusions and suggestion). He may have less combat resources for the rest of the day though. That issue gets smaller and smaller as he levels though.

 

[Fenris-77]

Maybe we need to broaden our definition of what an infiltrator does. He definitely does what you're describing, and I'd agree that the Sorcerer is also good at that role. But there are a ton of other scenarios where those same skills can be used to trick, mislead, and misdirect. I like the at-will stuff the Warlock has because that I can try whatever I like whenever I like without expending resources. So, for a creative player, which I am, I vastly prefer to play generally with at-will invocations plus cantrips.

(Again, an aside about MC options, subtle spell is fantastic for what we're talking about, and I'd probably MC just to get it.)

Just as a small example, the Warlock could disguise self four or five times when being chased to throw of any chance of tracing his steps, and all without worrying about resources or impacting the rest of the adventuring day. I guess it's a lot like the Warlock class as a whole, you get less toys to play with but the toys you get are high end.

What's your picture or plan for invocation use? Disguise/Alter Self obviously isn't the only way to fly.

 

[TwoSix]

Yea. I mean I know trying to make a hexblade warlock work in melee with GWM and PAM is a thing. But that takes nearly all your class resources and in the end you've basically just made something that is clearly inferior to fighters, paladins or barbarians.

I don't know if I'd go that far. It's the only class that can leverage Elven Accuracy and GWM together, for example. Considering how ridiculously common gaining melee advantage is in most party compositions, it's a pretty strong combination.

I'm probably biased because I played a half-elf hexblade for about a year, but it's been my favorite character so far mechanically. It's not the king of any area, but it can do pretty much any task at a B+/A- level, and I much prefer generalists over specialists.

 

[FrogReaver]

Maybe we need to broaden our definition of what an infiltrator does. He definitely does what you're describing, and I'd agree that the Sorcerer is also good at that role. But there are a ton of other scenarios where those same skills can be used to trick, mislead, and misdirect. I like the at-will stuff the Warlock has because that I can try whatever I like whenever I like without expending resources. So, for a creative player, which I am, I vastly prefer to play generally with at-will invocations plus cantrips.

Sure, but I'm talking about mechanical optimization and while such things are very fun I can't say that they really allow the warlock to perform many tasks that the sorcerer cannot. It's going to be rare when you need more disguise self spells than a tier 2 sorcerer can cast. Whereas I can easily envision infiltration scenarios where more than disguise self and 2 other spells are required to safely get the job done.

(Again, an aside about MC options, subtle spell is fantastic for what we're talking about, and I'd probably MC just to get it.)

If that's the case then sorcerer is hands down better at this role because he can keep full spell progression while fulfilling the role. If anything you would multiclass your sorcerer into warlock for the 2 at will invocations of disguise self and silent image instead of your warlock into a sorcerer IMO.

Just as a small example, the Warlock could disguise self four or five times when being chased to throw of any chance of tracing his steps, and all without worrying about resources or impacting the rest of the adventuring day. I guess it's a lot like the Warlock class as a whole, you get less toys to play with but the toys you get are high end.

Sure but a counterexample (which illustrates a far more useful scenario) - he can't misty step into a window, disguise self once there, subtle spell suggestion on the ruler, then misty step back out.

What's your picture or plan for invocation use? Disguise/Alter Self obviously isn't the only way to fly.

Right now I'm at
Devils sight
Disguise self - at will
Agonizing Blast
The tome pact invocation for rituals

I would like the silent image one but it doesn't seem like the way to go till later. The rest, at least until very high level are kinda meh.

 

[Fenris-77]

To be fair, I can think of a lot of scenarios where both the Warlock and Sorcerer need actual skills as well, and neither class really rocks that out. Just because we can imagine scenarios doesn't mean that's always going to be the case too. The point of optimization is to make the best use of the available build tools, whatever that looks like. My point, which is borne out by your choice of Disguise Self, is that that is one of the best invocation options available to the Warlock early so it might as well be a purpose built thing that gets some synergy and support from the build in general.

I forgot about the most important reason that Disguise Self at will might be more useful than the Sorcerer's spell slots, and that would be the Friends Cantrip. That's the thing I can see using a whole lot paired with DS and I really like the idea that I can do both at will without burning resources. Anyway, enough about that - we're building a Warlock, so let's build a Warlock.

I agree with your list of Invocations, nothing else seems better. Would you still take Devil's Sight for a character that already has Darkvision? I think I'd use it as a solid reason to go VHum and grab that extra feat. Seeing through magical darkness is still good in both cases though. Misty Visions would be my alternate there for a character who already had Darkvision, but I'd be looking to swap it out at higher levels.

I guess the next decision is race. VHum for the feat or Half Elf for the good stats and access to Eleven Accuracy seem like the best options. This is where we need to start picking what kind of Warlock we're building. If we're going to build for Hexblade melee/range then we want to go VHum to start building the feat pyramid early, but if we're planning on a ranged spell/buff role then 1/2E might be the better pick. I like the 1/2E option personally - good stats, decent racial abilities, and extra skills.

For stats I'd probably go with the standard CHA/DEX/CON rankng, so either fits.

If we are looking to build something that isn't trying to do the same thing as a Wizard, I might think about a Fey or Old One Patron to work the control side of things. I haven't had a chance to use Create Thrall and it seems pretty cool. Something in a skill monkey/infiltrator/control build could be very cool (1/2E for skills). I find the intrigue builds for Warlocks more compelling than the standard adventurer builds, and that's where I think they start to differentiate themselves more from Wizards and Sorcerers.

If we go 1/2E with Tome we have a good skill list, lots of cantrips, extended spell access, plus some funky at-will invocations to work with. That sounds like fun to me. From there we could either go Hexblade and build a true all-rounder, or we could focus on the intrigue side of things and go with Fey or Old One.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don't know if I'd go that far. It's the only class that can leverage Elven Accuracy and GWM together, for example. Considering how ridiculously common gaining melee advantage is in most party compositions, it's a pretty strong combination.

I wouldn't go that far. Melee advantage when your charisma based and aren't causing it yourself isn't common in my games. Spells or prone are typically the only way to proc it and even then most of the better combat spells don't cause it. If anything you'll be likely to have it in easy fights and less likely to have it in hard fights IMO - which is the exact opposite of what you would prefer.

In the right party though it can be devastating, as some partys nearly always generate advantage - though it's still costing those other PC's resources to generate said advantage that they may could have used to do something just as effective. Anyways, at this point you need presumably 3 feats, which means by level 12 you've still not maxed your charisma and so you pretty much suck when you don't have advantage (because 16 cha isn't really enough to make use of the -5/+10 feature against most enemies). It also means you didn't take the actor feat (or if you did then you did so at the expense of those other feats or your charisma).

I'm probably biased because I played a half-elf hexblade for about a year, but it's been my favorite character so far mechanically. It's not the king of any area, but it can do pretty much any task at a B+/A- level, and I much prefer generalists over specialists.

How though? If you really took elven accuracy, GWM and polearm mastery and the extra attack invocation and the invocation that lets you use a great weapon with the hexblade ability. you presumably only have 16 cha, 2-3 invocation slots open (1 for most of the game), no notable out of combat abilities etc.

I guess you have 2-3 short rest recharging spells per day. What are you using them for?

I really don't see what he's doing at a B+ level besides melee when allies grace you with advantage.

 

[Esker]

Don't forget Elven Accuracy can also give a +1 CHA, so if you're half-elf and planned for it, you probably started with 17 CHA, to 18 with EA.

Not saying I disagree with your bottom line, but taking elven accuracy usually won't cost you a boost to your main stat; tertiary or quaternary(?) stat maybe.

As for how to get advantage, presumably using devils sight and darkness a whole lot.

Or better, shadow of moil.

 

[Fenris-77]

Yup, this is why an oddly high percentage of suave half elves in the know enroll at Tanis' School for Accurate Warlocking. It's a well regarded finishing school, and their competitive cantrip team is really top notch.