D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

gyor

Legend
Brog say: "Bah. Weak mages twiddle fingers and cheat reality. Ax to head more honest. Real men don't hide behind magic." ;)

Besides, try running an all mage party sometime. It might be possible in 5E (I haven't tried) but in previous editions it just didn't work. Well, that and sometime I just like the simplicity because the last thing I want to do on my day off is think.

All full caster 5e of four characters using just published classes. Hexblade Bladelick Warlock, College of Swords Bard (Spy background), Circle of the Moon Druid, and Tempest Cleric, all have fullcasting, all can fight in melee, 3 have great healing, one has powerful wild shape, and descent blasting options. For a 6 character party add a Bladesinger Wizard and Drow Divine Soul Sorcerer with booming blade cantrip. All have full casting and can fight on the front melee battle lines, 4 have healing magic, most at least have some blasting spell options, most have the ability to conjure creatures, and the Wizard can summon a familiar, 4 of the six have ritual casting and the Bard has expertise and Jack of all trades.

5e is the most gishilicious (okay I made that word up) edition of D&D.
 
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Doug McCrae

Legend
One of the balance devices Tolkien uses in The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit is to have his higher-powered characters, especially Gandalf, absent for extended periods. The hand of the author is rather visible here imo. Our point of view is always that of the weaker characters and the action generally follows them. Another balance device is to give Bilbo, Frodo and Sam access to lots of magic items.
Since you brought up LOTR ... all the fighter types were pretty mundane. Good at what they did? Obviously. Exaggerated, superhero or supernatural? Not really.
Faramir and Boromir have prophetic dreams. Aragorn commands an army of ghosts. Legolas can walk over the top of snow and possesses superhumanly acute senses. Frodo gains 'second sight' as a result of his proximity to the One Ring. The staves Faramir gives to the hobbits have had a virtue of "finding and returning" placed on them (which suggests that minor magic might be common in Middle Earth).

We should also consider magic items. It might be said that these don't count but three of the most magical characters in The Lord of the Rings - Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel - possess elven rings of power and we don't know the extent to which their displayed powers depend upon these.

Frodo carries five (six if we include the staves) magic items - The One Ring, Sting, mithril armour, elven rope, and the Phial of Galadriel. Some of these are also used by Sam. Frodo also uses the Mirror of Galadriel and the Seat of Seeing. Aragorn uses the palantir, contending psychically with Sauron - "I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it... in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will."
 
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I deal with that by ensuring that there's no 5 minute work day. If you have 5-8 encounters between long rests, the spellcasters can't steal the show every time because they simply run out of options.

Or maybe it's just that I view it as a team effort and sometimes some PCs are going to contribute more. In any case, I enjoy playing fighters in 5E even if they're not as flashy.

High level D&D spellcasters have an abundance of ways to reliably dictate Rest Cycles (some of them Rituals).

If your answer to this problem is to artificially (meaning reducing the competitive integrity of the game to nothing) introduce balance by deploying GM Force (playing an adversarial, Calvinball game of preconceived arms race gambits because you’ve got unparalleled metagame access...proactively deploying blocks or, worse, impromptu blocks to ensure the spell gambit doesn’t work)...well, that is a non-starter for Challenge-based play.

But let us say for a minute you don’t do that and somehow there are organic situations that consistently, day in and day out, foil a spellcasters ability to deploy Rest Cycle dictating gambits.

8 (let’s go all the way to the max) resource-attrition conflicts per day (which, by the way, is an absurdly high number)...be it combat, parlay, dealing with travel obstacles, divination/investigation, what-have-you.

An endgame Diviner is going to have:

* 2-3 Divination plays (that will probably dictate an encounter with ensuring a failed save on a brutal spell or saving an ally/themselves from a bad spell effect.

* Potent Cantrips (particularly Minor Illusion)

* 20+ spells including Renewables

* Rituals

* Singularly powerful spells that outright win a conflict/obviate an obstacle by themselves

* Magic items

* Skills in the Int/Wis domain

Let us say, worse case scenario, they need somewhere around 3.5 productive (or decisive, as some spellcasters plays will be) plays/moves per conflict; 28ish?

Even at the far end of the spectrum, that is trivially achievable by an endgame Diviner. The idea that they have to meticulously ration their plays just doesn’t bear out in play.

Yes, early on, there will be some rationing. But the fact is that (a) the 6-8 (ridiculous) encounter model doesn’t proliferate, (b) Wizard resources both proliferate and increase in potency which outscals that model, (c) that potency means LESS moves required per day because “moves per conflict” will decrease as play progresses (with the wizard, and some other party members, attaining decisive “one-move-encounter-enders” in their repertoire.

So even if a GM Calvinballs Tiny Hut and the like over and over and over...the encounter model (even at its apex) is still not enough to introduce this theorized “wizards must carefully ration their resources!” paradigm.
 

Eric V

Hero
Really, you can have two of the three...

1 Specified abilities pre-determined (not gimmick point screentime style edit driven resolution by fluff on demand) that differ between characters

2 no or minimal GM curation of challenges and needs

3 Balance or equal feeling or agency or power (whatever you care about balancing)

I sort of feel 13th Age has pulled this off, the game of having all 3.

In your example, surely the priest and dwarf have abilities that still let them contribute even when not facing their most-hated foes?
 


Oofta

Legend
High level D&D spellcasters have an abundance of ways to reliably dictate Rest Cycles (some of them Rituals).

If your answer to this problem is to artificially (meaning reducing the competitive integrity of the game to nothing) introduce balance by deploying GM Force (playing an adversarial, Calvinball game of preconceived arms race gambits because you’ve got unparalleled metagame access...proactively deploying blocks or, worse, impromptu blocks to ensure the spell gambit doesn’t work)...well, that is a non-starter for Challenge-based play.

But let us say for a minute you don’t do that and somehow there are organic situations that consistently, day in and day out, foil a spellcasters ability to deploy Rest Cycle dictating gambits.

8 (let’s go all the way to the max) resource-attrition conflicts per day (which, by the way, is an absurdly high number)...be it combat, parlay, dealing with travel obstacles, divination/investigation, what-have-you.

An endgame Diviner is going to have:

* 2-3 Divination plays (that will probably dictate an encounter with ensuring a failed save on a brutal spell or saving an ally/themselves from a bad spell effect.

* Potent Cantrips (particularly Minor Illusion)

* 20+ spells including Renewables

* Rituals

* Singularly powerful spells that outright win a conflict/obviate an obstacle by themselves

* Magic items

* Skills in the Int/Wis domain

Let us say, worse case scenario, they need somewhere around 3.5 productive (or decisive, as some spellcasters plays will be) plays/moves per conflict; 28ish?

Even at the far end of the spectrum, that is trivially achievable by an endgame Diviner. The idea that they have to meticulously ration their plays just doesn’t bear out in play.

Yes, early on, there will be some rationing. But the fact is that (a) the 6-8 (ridiculous) encounter model doesn’t proliferate, (b) Wizard resources both proliferate and increase in potency which outscals that model, (c) that potency means LESS moves required per day because “moves per conflict” will decrease as play progresses (with the wizard, and some other party members, attaining decisive “one-move-encounter-enders” in their repertoire.

So even if a GM Calvinballs Tiny Hut and the like over and over and over...the encounter model (even at its apex) is still not enough to introduce this theorized “wizards must carefully ration their resources!” paradigm.

I just use the alternate rules where a short rest is overnight and a long rest is a week or more. Add in some time constraints and there's no need for shenanigans. I've never had a problem getting in 5-10 resource consuming encounters between long rests.

As for the rest, I think perfectly balanced classes at all levels is a fools quest that is not practical or even particularly desirable. Some classes will shine more at different levels. They tried balancing everything with 4E and it was less successful commercially than other versions of the game.
 

Oofta

Legend
One of the balance devices Tolkien uses in The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit is to have his higher-powered characters, especially Gandalf, absent for extended periods. The hand of the author is rather visible here imo. Our point of view is always that of the weaker characters and the action generally follows them. Another balance device is to give Bilbo, Frodo and Sam access to lots of magic items.
Faramir and Boromir have prophetic dreams. Aragorn commands an army of ghosts. Legolas can walk over the top of snow and possesses superhumanly acute senses. Frodo gains 'second sight' as a result of his proximity to the One Ring. The staves Faramir gives to the hobbits have had a virtue of "finding and returning" placed on them (which suggests that minor magic might be common in Middle Earth).

We should also consider magic items. It might be said that these don't count but three of the most magical characters in The Lord of the Rings - Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel - possess elven rings of power and we don't know the extent to which their displayed powers depend upon these.

Frodo carries five (six if we include the staves) magic items - The One Ring, Sting, mithril armour, elven rope, and the Phial of Galadriel. Some of these are also used by Sam. Frodo also uses the Mirror of Galadrial and the Seat of Seeing. Aragorn uses the palantir, contending psychically with Sauron - "I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it... in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will."

Let's see. Don't have epic level PCs adventure with the low level characters, dex based characters (particularly elves) are cheesy. Aragon had a plot device tied to his back story and a good diplomacy skill. Frodo was given a special ability due to an artifact. Sending dreams to PCs is a plot device that any DM can use and magic items are cool.

So?

EDIT: get rid of weird double quote.
 


pemerton

Legend
I have to say, conceptually I have an issue with the idea of super high level characters - the most powerful heroes in the world - still having to trudge through 6-8 encounters a day - the very idea of that feels somewhat mundane - but that's by the by I guess, as I've already said I'm not the audience for high level D&D.
I think that it is a strength of 4e that it avoids this problem - because of the symmetrical resource suites across different classes. Of course @Campbell has already explained way upthread why this feature of 4e doesn't satisfy his desire for differentiated gameplay across classes.
 


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