D&D 5E Fixing the fighter (I know...)

[Mistwell]

The problem with the fighter is that anything non-combat they get (background/skills/feats), other classes a) get them too and b) do them better.

What other class gets the Know Your Enemy ability?

And saying a fighter can use their ASIs on non-combat feats is a total false choice and not realistic.

No it's not. They get MORE ASIs than anyone else, which means they have more of an option to choose non-combat feats. You wouldn't even be complaining if those extra feats were instead replaced with those non-combat abilities I suspect, but somehow because they have the option to choose you're acting like it's LESS of an option!

 

[Mistwell]

ASIs. Feats are DM-opt-in optional.

You like to argue out of both sides of your mouth on this one. If someone says feats are optional you argue everyone uses them. If someone argues something assuming feats, you argue they're optional. Maybe pick a position and stick to it regardless of how much you gain from that position in the moment?

 

[BookBarbarian]

If the cleric (or other class) uses an ASI to get the same feat the fighter chooses, they can only have 3 opportunities to raise stats while the fighter still has 5 opportunities. That's giving up more.

Personally, I think that feat option/choice is a lot better than half of the built in class features other classes get instead of extra feats. Raise an ability by 2 or choose a feat compared to being able to see a mile or track at a fast pace or carry more (barbarian totem level 6 features)? Which will be more useful in a campaign? Which will be used more often in a typical game? An ability check/attack roll/saving throw +1 bonus or feat, or one of those built in features?

If the built in feature is an something like an extra 3rd level spell slot? Then that one since it offers more power and more versatility than the extra ASI.

But I am being majorly nitpicky. I actually don't think the Fighter doesn't get any options to explore the other pillars. I think the problem is those options don't feel unique or special.

When the fighter has something unique or special in that regard (and I prefer it to be in the subclass not the base fighter) that will feel a lot more interesting to the player.

And I think this is more of a problem of feel than of fact (but I also think that's true of "The Ranger Problem" so take that with a grain of salt

 

[Tony Vargas]

You like to argue out of both sides of your mouth on this one. If someone says feats are optional you argue everyone uses them.

Not about this one (I'll /often/ take both sides of an issue, though, especially when both sides are staking out extreme or inconsistent positions, so I'm not surprised you got that impression).
And, I don't use 'em, 'cept when I ran AL. I'm fairly consistent that way.

Lots of folks argue "but everyone uses 'em" but feats and MCing (and supplements and UA and the like) are optional. As a DM, you can just not opt in - or not. It's usually a softer sell to not opt into something that's explicitly optional, than to "ban" something that's not so presented, too.

 

[GlassJaw]

No it's not. They get MORE ASIs than anyone else, which means they have more of an option to choose non-combat feats. You wouldn't even be complaining if those extra feats were instead replaced with those non-combat abilities I suspect, but somehow because they have the option to choose you're acting like it's LESS of an option!

Fine. The first bonus ASI they get is level 6. Too late for a non-combat ribbon. Again, it's also a false choice. You might not but the vast majority of fighters are going to choose Str/Dex or a combat feat, and most likely will do so for the first 3-4 ASIs.

So sure, you can choose a non-combat feat but now you are requiring the fighter to choose between a non-combat ribbon versus enhancing their primary function.

In the game design world, that's called a false choice.

 

[Garthanos]

Two known spells, so until they use their slot, they choose from among 4 spell options each round (plus using a weapon or whatever, of course).
It seems simple, but a comparable degree of freedom in 4e - 2 at-will, 1 encounter, 1 daily, 4 things to choose from - was deemed too complex, at the time.
So, yeah, he's agreeing with you - with a side of bitterness. ;P

Hush. I think I explained it with overly hyper detail but yes..

 

[Mistwell]

Fine. The first bonus ASI they get is level 6. Too late for a non-combat ribbon.

Why? What's so late about level 6? Also I detailed above just how many subclasses (all but one) give non-combat features at level 3. Somehow you didn't think enough to bother with those?

Again, it's also a false choice. You might not but the vast majority of fighters are going to choose Str/Dex or a combat feat, and most likely will do so for the first 3-4 ASIs.

Sorry what stats are you looking at for that conclusion again? Because it smells like BS to me.

So sure, you can choose a non-combat feat but now you are requiring the fighter to choose between a non-combat ribbon versus enhancing their primary function.

In the game design world, that's called a false choice.

First, you're not one to speak for "the game design world" because I have not seen you demonstrate any knowledge or experience of that field. Second, it's a real choice. You only need at most two feats to really dish out a huge amount of damage and control for the fighter. By level 8 You can easily have Polearm Mastery, Sentinel, and Ritual Caster (I know this from experience - my fighter is dishing out four attacks per round, two regular ones, a bonus action with PM, and a reaction with PM combined with sentinel). There was no false choice involved with that - they got an extra one at 6th level nobody else got and so can afford to spend it on non-combat if that's something they want to boost. And as they only depend on two stats (Str and Con or Dex and Con) they don't need to worry about boosting ability scores much anyway. They CAN but it's only an option and not required at all to be effective.

You keep denying that happens, without explanation. Like your experience simply MUST be everyone's else experience, right?

 

[Sacrosanct]

If the built in feature is an something like an extra 3rd level spell slot? Then that one since it offers more power and more versatility than the extra ASI.

Access to a 3rd level spell isn't the class feature like for like we're comparing though. We're looking at things like level 6 class features. So you need to compare the extra ASI with whatever sorcerous origin feature they get at 6th level, or the barbarian subclass feature at level 6, etc. To compare against getting a level 3 spell, the fighter gets an extra attack.

In the game design world, that's called a false choice.

How many games have you designed, exactly? I've done quite a few, including an award winning one. What you are describing isn't a false choice. It's literally an actual choice.

 

[Tony Vargas]

To compare against getting a level 3 spell, the fighter gets an extra attack.

Extra attack most closely compares (and compares favorably) to cantrip damage scaling. Both aprox every 5 levels, both at-will, both mainly about single-target DPR.

Fine. The first bonus ASI they get is level 6. Too late for a non-combat ribbon. Again, it's also a false choice.
So sure, you can choose a non-combat feat but now you are requiring the fighter to choose between a non-combat ribbon versus enhancing their primary function.
In the game design world, that's called a false choice.

However you approach it, a player choosing ASIs (or feats if available) is likely going to have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th choice. The fighter doesn't just get his 5th-string & 6th-best choice over and above that (eventually), he gets his 2nd and subsequent choices ~2 levels early, starting at 6th, and his 4th choice like 5 levels early, at 14th.

So, it's never a false choice, its the same choices, a little early, starting at 6th, and additional lowest-priority choices after 14th.

No, that's not a lot, but it's not nothing.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Access to a 3rd level spell isn't the class feature like for like we're comparing though. We're looking at things like level 6 class features. So you need to compare the extra ASI with whatever sorcerous origin feature they get at 6th level, or the barbarian subclass feature at level 6, etc. To compare against getting a level 3 spell, the fighter gets an extra attack.

I think it is what we are comparing. Or at least should be.

The spellcaster gets access to level 5 spells at 5 true with is comparable to extra attack, but full casters are also getting another 3rd level slot at 6, Or am I mistaken? I don't play fullcasters.