D&D 5E Is the sleep spell d&d 5e too powerful

[cmad1977]

Well, there are some things in 5E that are legit overpowered. But they tend not to be immediately obvious, because they either happen at high levels that rarely see play (the simulacrum spell), or require combos to cause a problem (the Great Weapon Mastery and Sharpshooter feats when combined with multiple attacks and ways to mitigate the -5 penalty).

Still not overpowered ESPECIALLY not the feats.

 

[neogod22]

If you've ever seen a boxing match, or MMA bout, it's pretty obvious when someone is getting worn down. Doesn't matter how smart you are, your body physically is wearing down. Lactic acid build up, lack of oxygen, etc. A DM should narrate how it would reasonably look, regardless if they are new players or seasoned ones.

Again, not necessarily a telltale sign. Someone can look like they haven't taken a single hit at the end of a fight and die from brain damage. There are many creatures tha might not look like they were damaged at all such as slimes, or incorporeal beings. Then there also creatures like undead that might not react to damage, and may even have started off with pretty damaged bodies. When dealing with constructs, you also can't really tell how much damage it's actually taking.

 

[Nebulous]

I'm looking at this from a purely statistical point of view (which many players do) and I find that it is way too powerful. There should be a saving throw or some kind of modification?

I think you will find that most people in this thread, including myself, strongly disagree that Sleep is an overpowered spell that needs fixing. If you still disagree, fine, change it in your game however you like, but I don't think you're going to get suggestions here.

 

[Jasondd]

No.

Even if you assume your original post where Fighter = 12 hp, Cleric = 9 hp, Rogue = 8 hp.

Everyone rolls initiative because you are initiating combat even though they're asleep. You cast sleep spell in the first round without opposition because you get surprise in that round.

If you roll high enough they're all asleep. If you don't, those that you didn't get would get perpception checks to wake up.

Great, now you get a free attack on your party members who are asleep.

You still have to roll to hit. Yes, you have advantage, but you can miss the attack, even on a sleeping target.

IF you hit with a... firebolt. You'll probably kill the rogue or cleric. Maybe depending on the dice. If you dont', they automatically wake up and act in the initiative order that was rolled earlier. They might go before you.

Anyone (probably the fighter) who didn't get slept by the spell, gets a chance to wake up each time you cast a spell whether its on them or not. If they wake up, they act on their init. If the fighter wakes up, you probably lose this attempted murder.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it guaranteed if you play how the rules are actually written? No.

As others have pointed out, it's not too powerful, even if you want to PVP and happen to be a serial killer wizard.

Plus, good luck playing in that group anymore!

But wait, there's more!

That human fighter or the human rogue, took Alertness with their bonus feat. They get +5 to their init, so if you dont' sleep them there is a great chance they go before you.

Better also try this before someone in the party gets a Weapon of Warning. You'd wake them all up immediately when you became an enemy by targeting them with hostile intent.

Ok, as for initiative, the spell could be cast as a surprise. If not, fine initiative. If he loses of course he's in trouble but if he wins and there are 2 targets (most likely the're dead) with the possibility of a third.

 

[Salthorae]

Ok, as for initiative, the spell could be cast as a surprise. If not, fine initiative. If he loses of course he's in trouble but if he wins and there are 2 targets (most likely the're dead) with the possibility of a third.

I get it, you want it to be super powerful because you've "discovered something", so nothing others say is going to sway you otherwise.

It just isn't any more powerful than a greatsword though when someone is asleep. Sorry.

 

[Mort]

Ok, as for initiative, the spell could be cast as a surprise. If not, fine initiative. If he loses of course he's in trouble but if he wins and there are 2 targets (most likely the're dead) with the possibility of a third.

Or he casts it, rolls low and gets absolutely no one. Sleep is good but (as to each target) it's all or nothing.

If we're talking surprise taking out the rest of the party - the mage is better off waiting until everyone goes to sleep and doing it then (sure, I'll take 1st watch).

 

[Nebulous]

I'm not sure what you're wanting here. If you play the game the way it's not designed to be played (PVP), can sleep at level 1 seem overpowered? Ok. Fine. Now what?

I'm not sure either. Seems like the OP wants everyone to be on board with his broken spell theory. Which, no one is, because it ain't broken.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

To the OPs question directly....

Not, its not too powerful because PREVIOUS to the wizard getting to cast the spell the party rogue snuck into his room at night and read over his journals...knew he was a serial killer...and stabbed him in the face before he got a chance to cast the spell.

As everyone is trying to tell you....all character powers in DnD are balanced around the idea of a party of characters fighting a party of monsters. That's not to say an enemy wizard can't cast sleep on a party (because it can) however you will find that when an enemy wizard casts sleep on a party the end result is different than if a "friendly wizard" does.

DS

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Something else I just thought of... though I laid it out pretty well above.

Saying sleep is too powerful because it gives you autocrits on your party at 1st level is like saying a greatsword or a greataxe are too powerful at first level.

The Barbarian who is secretly a serial killer is on watch (or the fighter, whoever). They decide "tonight's the night". Your wizard and the cleric and rogue are all asleep (and unconscious per the condition) even without the sleep spell.

Walk over to the cleric, drop that Greatsword with advantage on the attack. Automatic 4d6+3 (minimum) damage. Average of 17 damage on that hit. Walk over and do the same to the rogue and wizard. Done.

Even more so, say it's not a fighter, say it's a half-orc barbarian who rages and uses a greataxe and then starts his rampage through the camp.

Auto crit on the sleeping Cleric, 3d12+3+2 (rage) = average damage of 24.5 damage to that cleric. Dead.

Move on to the Wizard and then the Rogue who probably didnt' wake up from just the "thunk".

Yep. A rogue with a rapier could probably do it, as well.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Forget sleep. The most powerful 1st level spell is obviously charm person. Then you could charm an idiot world leader and get appointed as Secretary of Defense and start a war. Who cares about killing 2 people right off the bat, when the spell can result in thousands dying. Clearly charm person is broken and too OP