D&D General The Sales of D&D vs. AD&D vs. AD&D 2nd Edition

The 2nd edition of AD&D sold well when it was released. Combined, the Dungeon Master’s Guide and Player’s Handbook sold over 400,000 copies in their first year. That’s a lot of books. Not the most ever sold by TSR, but a lot. To give some historical comparison, the 1981 D&D Basic Rules Set sold over 650,000 copies in its first year. To compare to previous editions of AD&D, the 1st edition DMG and PHB together sold over 146,000 copies in 1979. Putting those numbers together makes AD&D 2nd edition look like a solid hit. But it hides a deeper problem.
The 2nd edition of AD&D sold well when it was released. Combined, the Dungeon Master’s Guide and Player’s Handbook sold over 400,000 copies in their first year. That’s a lot of books. Not the most ever sold by TSR, but a lot. To give some historical comparison, the 1981 D&D Basic Rules Set sold over 650,000 copies in its first year. To compare to previous editions of AD&D, the 1st edition DMG and PHB together sold over 146,000 copies in 1979. Putting those numbers together makes AD&D 2nd edition look like a solid hit. But it hides a deeper problem.

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Benjamin Riggs shares some D&D history! This was posted on Facebook and shared with permission.


AD&D 2nd edition didn’t have the legs that AD&D 1st edition did. Combined sales of the 1st edition DMG and PHB actually went up at first, selling over 390,000 in 1980, over 577,000 in 1981, over 452,000 in 1982, and 533,000 in 1983 before finally sliding to just over 234,000 in 1984, at the time when TSR began its first crisis. Meanwhile, the 2nd edition DMG and PHB would never sell more than 200,000 copies in a single year after 1989. In short, 2nd edition wasn’t selling like its predecessor.

But if AD&D 2nd edition looks small in comparison to1st edition, both shrink before the altar of Dungeons & Dragons. Including 1st, 2nd edition, revised 2nd edition, and introductory sets, AD&D sold a total of 4,624,111 corebooks between 1979 and 1998. Meanwhile, D&D sold 5,454,859 units in that same period, the vast bulk of those purchases coming between 1979 and 1983.

TSR could no longer put up the sales numbers it once did. Even D&D, which sold better than AD&D in either iteration, didn’t sell in the 90’s like it did in the 80’s. What had changed? Something changed, but what was it? Was it that Gary Gygax was gone? Had something gone wrong with 2nd edition? Was a rule changed that shouldn’t have been? Was it too complex? Not complex enough? Had RPGs been a fad that faded? Should the AD&D lines be canceled entirely to focus on the historically better-selling D&D?

These numbers should have been an occasion for self-reflection and correction all over TSR.

But they weren’t.

These numbers were left in the offices of upper management. Zeb Cook himself said he never saw any concrete sales numbers for 2nd edition. The decision by management under Lorraine Williams to keep sales numbers like those above restricted to the top of the company must be seen as a mistake. The inability of the game designers to know how their product was selling cut them off from economic feedback on their product. I see those numbers, and what I read is that TSR’s audience bought the 2nd edition books, read them, and just weren’t crazy about them. (Although I myself am quite partial to the rules, as they are what I grew up playing.) But Zeb Cook didn’t know that, so how could he make changes to improve his craft in the future?

Benjamin went on to note his source: "I have a source who sent me a few pages of sales data from TSR. It's primary source material. I don't have everything, but I do have the data contained in the post above." He is currently writing a book on the sale of TSR to Wizards of the Coast.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Numbers similar to this came out years ago and 2E outsold 3E from the look of it.

It's hard to compare to the 80s although you can look at units sold phb to phb.

One can also look at cultural impact. USA population 1980 228 million, USA 2018 estimated 328 million basically 50% more.

So if you had 5 million players then you need 7.5 million now to have a similar impact although internet can magnify that I suppose. The 5 million numbers just a number I made up for an example. You can sell more books but have less cultural impact.

I like 2E a lot. It's cleaner than 1E, and to this day it's the best tool box D&D. If you want to do something non standard 2E is probably your best bet. I'll probably just it out again soon as new players have heard of things like Spelljammer and want to play it. And it's to hard to convert to 5E in terms of workload.

But they lost the feel of D&D in some ways. It's designed to appeal to everyone but appeals to no one. Exaggeration but I'm talking about all the settings and rules variants. Skilled DM it's great but not really newbie friendly and 2E didn't seem to have a classic adventure a'la 1E, B/X.

1E bubble had burst by 1989 so comparing sales it's probably fairer to look at 1987 and 88 vs 1989 vs 83.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Well, despite your rude, hostile, and condescending tone (reasons, really?), it's somewhat obvious and fairly well known and demonstrated in the OP.

Right. It's not somewhat obvious. It's not "well known". And it definitely was not "demonstrated in the OP". Which is why I took the tone I did. You're acting like this is just a thing everyone knows because it was your personal experience. It's definitely not.

D&D (Basic) sold more copies than all of the AD&D 1e and 2e Corebooks from '79 to '98. More of those sales ("the vast bulk") occurred between 1979 and 1983.

Now, if you compare the accessories and sales of other items (for example, campaign sets, modules, and so on) produced and made by TSR, or if you look at what was going on at conventions during the 80s and 90s, or you read any issue of Dragon Magazine to determine the amount of relative coverage between D&D and AD&D, you realize that either:

A. The sales of B/X are not reflected in actual play in the same way that AD&D is; or

B. The whole world is just mad! Crazy I tell you!

Or C. Your memory is incredibly faulty and you're wrong on several of those points. Conventions definitely did play B/X a lot (I went to them - those are the key years I attended the four yearly Los Angeles conventions, every year for many years, and B/X was hugely popular). There was one unified campaign set and that was THE ENTIRE POINT OF THAT SET - TO BE ONE UNIFIED ONE. It's still popular to this day. It was specifically contrary to the plans for AD&D. As for Modules - there were many of them! Some of the most famous to this day!

So I don't think you're crazy for being so wrong, I think you just don't remember. Your "I am right because everyone knows" is not in fact an argument.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
B/X bubble popped hard.

By 1989 it was almost out of print. It lingered for another 5 years but they did attempt revivals in that 5 year period and one box sold half a million and the follow up a few hundred thousand.

Even at that late phase it may have outsold 2E. RC, black box the one after that.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
yeah. The last time I went to Gencon in 2000, I felt the same way... never did return. That said, I've been looking around at upcoming conventions in CO and here in Cheyenne.... not having been to a gaming convention in 20 years, I thought it would be fun to attend one again...
Things turned around shortly after you left, actually. 3.0/d20 revitalized that side of the hobby, and Storyteller kinda fell off my radar with nWoD, then WWGS went out of business or something for quite a while...
...now we have some 25th anniversary editions of the now-classic Storyteller games.
 

@Mistwell back in the early eighties my distinct recollection was that everyone played B/X except me (although I did start with it) and I was the "guy who had the AD&D books," ergo I was the cool DM. As I recall, by mid eighties no one seemed to play it anymore, having graduated to other games or AD&D, but that doesn't negate the value of B/X as a gateway system, in essence. Even to this day, at least three of the ten regular players in my current group got started with B/X or original D&D and never played AD&D 1st. Myself and one other were AD&D 1E diehards, and the rest of the group started after 3rd edition came on the scene, or later.

My suspicion is that the impression and experience of players will vary wildly from one locale to another, so this is why it's a bad idea to make strict assumptions based on personal experience. My own personal experience led to what I outlined above....but I wouldn't presume it was true across the country.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I'm not gonna claim LARP killed D&D; that would be pretty ridiculous. But I think it did have some effect on D&D's popularity, even if by a small amount. I remember the general population would associate LARPers with D&D, and have met many who just assumed that's how people played D&D. And let's be real, to the average person, a LARPer is pretty unusual, weird, and extra nerdy. I remember a movie (can't recall the title, but it was about modern day swordsmen) that came out in the late 80s or early 90s, and there was a scene where they are at the swordsmen school, and one of the new students was this overweight bespeckled nerd with a fake sword and fake furs, and he introduced himself as a Chaotic evil barbarian. They promptly made fun of him and beat his butt in humiliation.

That was the general view towards LARPers. That very strong stigma I'm sure had an effect in trying to recruit people into playing D&D back then.


Re: Magic, I can also attest that in military circles, almost everyone single person I know in the military switched from D&D to Magic, because it was a card game, which meant it was portable. And when you get deployed, you have very limited space. We bought that stuff up like candy.

edit Ha! Turns out it was called "The swordsman". Of course lol. 1992. Lorenzo Llamas.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
I'm not gonna claim LARP killed D&D; that would be pretty ridiculous. But I think it did have some effect on D&D's popularity, even if by a small amount.
Likewise, I'm not going to claim that the Satanic Panic "killed" D&D either, but it certainly had an impact where I lived. It was just so surreal. I can't blame the bookstores for not carrying these products, because people were literally burning those books in their front yards.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Likewise, I'm not going to claim that the Satanic Panic "killed" D&D either, but it certainly had an impact where I lived. It was just so surreal. I can't blame the bookstores for not carrying these products, because people were literally burning those books in their front yards.

Well, if there's anything the past few years have shown, it's that there are still plenty of people willing to burn their belongings based on overreaction and misinformation...
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Your memory is incredibly faulty and you're wrong on several of those points. Conventions definitely did play B/X a lot (I went to them - those are the key years I attended the four yearly Los Angeles conventions, every year for many years, and B/X was hugely popular).
I think it's more likely all our memories are fine, there were just regional variations. I was attending cons in the Bay Area, so, a mere 450 miles or so north of you, in the same period, and AD&D was everywhere, 0D&D still appeared fairly often as did its spiritual heir, Arduin Grimoire - and Champions! was quite prevalent, since the folks that wrote it were locals, and Chaosium games, and outside of RPGs, Cosmic Encounters, SFB and even venerable wargames, including space-hogging M&M were to be found - but no one ever uttered "Bee-Ehks" and Basic was ignored as, well, basic.

Likewise, we'd doubtless find that even when we did nominally play the same game back in the day, the variants, table conventions, and outright misunderstandings treated as gospel would be completely different, as well.

I'm not gonna claim LARP killed D&D; that would be pretty ridiculous. But I think it did have some effect on D&D's popularity, even if by a small amount.
My feel for it just that LARP, especially MET, and Storyteller were still vibrant and bringing in new players when TSR was in limbo and D&D's traditional demographic had been distracted by the M:tG phenom.
Not killed D&D, so much as was found standing over the body - and, as we all know from Perry Mason, therefore absolutely innocent!
 
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