D&D 5E UA Spell Versatility: A deeper dive

[cbwjm]

Really? That isn't consistent with what he said about level-up retraining:


He said it counts as a bard spell. So you can swap it for another bard spell. So that is consistent.

He didn't say that it is gone for good when talking about level-up retraining. In fact, if it "counts as a bard spell" for you, and you can swap any bard spell for any other bard spell, that means you can swap back.

It is on your list, just not one you know. Later, you can grab it again, from your bard spell list.

---

I cannot find the "new" Crawford quote. Source?

The spell isn't added to the bard spell list it just counts as a bard spell when you cast it. When you replace a spell gained through magical secrets, it must be replaced with a spell from the bard spell list. Look up the sage advice compendium, it mentions it in there. If you want to read it differently, go for it.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Here's a scenario that illustrates my concerns:

The party includes a 10th-level sorcerer and a 10th-level wizard. They defeat the monsters in a dungeon, and come across a stone door with an impression of scepter in it. Some Intelligence checks let them determine that they probably need to place a scepter of that shape into the door to open it. (Did they miss it in the dungeon? Was it not in the dungeon? Irrelevent!) So they set up night for the camp. That morning, the sorcerer switches out cone of cold for creation. He creates a scepter (stone, metal, whatever, they have coins and there are rocks around), which they use to open the door.

Deeper in the dungeon, they come across some sort of fiend bound in a summoning circle. It appears to speak a language, but not the same language that the party does. The wizard ritual casts comprehend languages. Now she can figure out what the fiend is saying, but can't communicate back well enough to for the party to be confident they won't be getting themselves into trouble (they don't read the same language, so she can't just write things down for the fiend to read). So they find another place to rest, and the sorcerer switches out haste for tongues. Now they go and have a conversation to figure out what's going on. The fiend claims to have a way to help them progress further in the dungeon (by dispelling a magical protection that seemed resistant to the party's dispel magic attempts). They party says, "we'll think about it" and retreats back a few rooms.

They settle in for a few days. The sorcerer restores his haste. Since they think this fiend is resistant or immune to cold, his player rifles through the PHB and Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and grabs synaptic static. He normally likes his 4th-level polymorph, but for this fight, he conjures himself up a banishment spell instead. That only took 3 days, but the rest of the party is getting restless, so they return. They release the fiend, and when things go poorly...banishment!

Continuing through the dungeon, see invisibility and enlarge/reduce also get temporarily switched in for the sorcerer, to good effect.

With the information they acquire at the end of the dungeon, they head out in pursuit of a white dragon. The sorcerer spends the 10 days travel time redesigning his spell list for the mission...protection from energy check! ...earthbind check! ...

I'm going to make the rather modest proposal that this is stepping on the toes of the wizard.

The biggest problem is that the sorcerer has the mid-adventure ability to swap in spells from his entire spell list whereas the wizard is limited to his personal spellbook.

 

[tetrasodium]

Here's a scenario that illustrates my concerns:

The party includes a 10th-level sorcerer and a 10th-level wizard. They defeat the monsters in a dungeon, and come across a stone door with an impression of scepter in it. Some Intelligence checks let them determine that they probably need to place a scepter of that shape into the door to open it. (Did they miss it in the dungeon? Was it not in the dungeon? Irrelevent!) So they set up night for the camp. That morning, the sorcerer switches out cone of cold for creation. He creates a scepter (stone, metal, whatever, they have coins and there are rocks around), which they use to open the door.

Deeper in the dungeon, they come across some sort of fiend bound in a summoning circle. It appears to speak a language, but not the same language that the party does. The wizard ritual casts comprehend languages. Now she can figure out what the fiend is saying, but can't communicate back well enough to for the party to be confident they won't be getting themselves into trouble (they don't read the same language, so she can't just write things down for the fiend to read). So they find another place to rest, and the sorcerer switches out haste for tongues. Now they go and have a conversation to figure out what's going on. The fiend claims to have a way to help them progress further in the dungeon (by dispelling a magical protection that seemed resistant to the party's dispel magic attempts). They party says, "we'll think about it" and retreats back a few rooms.

They settle in for a few days. The sorcerer restores his haste. Since they think this fiend is resistant or immune to cold, his player rifles through the PHB and Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and grabs synaptic static. He normally likes his 4th-level polymorph, but for this fight, he conjures himself up a banishment spell instead. That only took 3 days, but the rest of the party is getting restless, so they return. They release the fiend, and when things go poorly...banishment!

Continuing through the dungeon, see invisibility and enlarge/reduce also get temporarily switched in for the sorcerer, to good effect.

With the information they acquire at the end of the dungeon, they head out in pursuit of a white dragon. The sorcerer spends the 10 days travel time redesigning his spell list for the mission...protection from energy check! ...earthbind check! ...

I'm going to make the rather modest proposal that this is stepping on the toes of the wizard.

The biggest problem is that the sorcerer has the mid-adventure ability to swap in spells from his entire spell list whereas the wizard is limited to his personal spellbook.

Excellent example of why there should be a lot more ritual spells or greater ritual spells added if this goes in... It's also a great exampl of why wizards try to scribe every spell they can find. Even if added with additional limitations. I think that a lot of the "but sorcerers need help" folks are ignoring the limitations of the small selection of ritual spells & downplaying just how huge "class spell list" is. If a group needs to rest to accomplish something, it doesn't matter who needs to rest because they will if no doom clock ticking.

 

[MoonSong]

Here's a scenario that illustrates my concerns:

The party includes a 10th-level sorcerer and a 10th-level wizard. They defeat the monsters in a dungeon, and come across a stone door with an impression of scepter in it. Some Intelligence checks let them determine that they probably need to place a scepter of that shape into the door to open it. (Did they miss it in the dungeon? Was it not in the dungeon? Irrelevent!) So they set up night for the camp. That morning, the sorcerer switches out cone of cold for creation. He creates a scepter (stone, metal, whatever, they have coins and there are rocks around), which they use to open the door.

Deeper in the dungeon, they come across some sort of fiend bound in a summoning circle. It appears to speak a language, but not the same language that the party does. The wizard ritual casts comprehend languages. Now she can figure out what the fiend is saying, but can't communicate back well enough to for the party to be confident they won't be getting themselves into trouble (they don't read the same language, so she can't just write things down for the fiend to read). So they find another place to rest, and the sorcerer switches out haste for tongues. Now they go and have a conversation to figure out what's going on. The fiend claims to have a way to help them progress further in the dungeon (by dispelling a magical protection that seemed resistant to the party's dispel magic attempts). They party says, "we'll think about it" and retreats back a few rooms.

They settle in for a few days. The sorcerer restores his haste. Since they think this fiend is resistant or immune to cold, his player rifles through the PHB and Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and grabs synaptic static. He normally likes his 4th-level polymorph, but for this fight, he conjures himself up a banishment spell instead. That only took 3 days, but the rest of the party is getting restless, so they return. They release the fiend, and when things go poorly...banishment!

Continuing through the dungeon, see invisibility and enlarge/reduce also get temporarily switched in for the sorcerer, to good effect.

With the information they acquire at the end of the dungeon, they head out in pursuit of a white dragon. The sorcerer spends the 10 days travel time redesigning his spell list for the mission...protection from energy check! ...earthbind check! ...

I'm going to make the rather modest proposal that this is stepping on the toes of the wizard.

The biggest problem is that the sorcerer has the mid-adventure ability to swap in spells from his entire spell list whereas the wizard is limited to his personal spellbook.

This is why I think it needs to be changed to match designer intent "after at least a week of downtime, you can change one of your spells known for one in your spell list of the same level. Your DM might allow you to use this feature after a long rest instead".

But, why does the party have the chance to long rest every time the party wishes?

 

[Ashrym]

Here's a scenario that illustrates my concerns:

The party includes a 10th-level sorcerer and a 10th-level wizard. They defeat the monsters in a dungeon, and come across a stone door with an impression of scepter in it. Some Intelligence checks let them determine that they probably need to place a scepter of that shape into the door to open it. (Did they miss it in the dungeon? Was it not in the dungeon? Irrelevent!) So they set up night for the camp. That morning, the sorcerer switches out cone of cold for creation. He creates a scepter (stone, metal, whatever, they have coins and there are rocks around), which they use to open the door.

Deeper in the dungeon, they come across some sort of fiend bound in a summoning circle. It appears to speak a language, but not the same language that the party does. The wizard ritual casts comprehend languages. Now she can figure out what the fiend is saying, but can't communicate back well enough to for the party to be confident they won't be getting themselves into trouble (they don't read the same language, so she can't just write things down for the fiend to read). So they find another place to rest, and the sorcerer switches out haste for tongues. Now they go and have a conversation to figure out what's going on. The fiend claims to have a way to help them progress further in the dungeon (by dispelling a magical protection that seemed resistant to the party's dispel magic attempts). They party says, "we'll think about it" and retreats back a few rooms.

They settle in for a few days. The sorcerer restores his haste. Since they think this fiend is resistant or immune to cold, his player rifles through the PHB and Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and grabs synaptic static. He normally likes his 4th-level polymorph, but for this fight, he conjures himself up a banishment spell instead. That only took 3 days, but the rest of the party is getting restless, so they return. They release the fiend, and when things go poorly...banishment!

Continuing through the dungeon, see invisibility and enlarge/reduce also get temporarily switched in for the sorcerer, to good effect.

With the information they acquire at the end of the dungeon, they head out in pursuit of a white dragon. The sorcerer spends the 10 days travel time redesigning his spell list for the mission...protection from energy check! ...earthbind check! ...

I'm going to make the rather modest proposal that this is stepping on the toes of the wizard.

The biggest problem is that the sorcerer has the mid-adventure ability to swap in spells from his entire spell list whereas the wizard is limited to his personal spellbook.

So you think every time they need a spell they'll just camp for 24 hours? It's a variant on the 5MWD and only works better than the wizard doing the same thing if things keep popping up that the only way to bypass is via spells the sorcerer has on his list but the wizard doesn't have in his book and the party cannot find an alternative way to succeed.

Seems a bit constructed but worth exploring, for sure. I'm curious what the feed back will actually look like.

 

[tetrasodium]

This is why I think it needs to be changed to match designer intent "after at least a week of downtime, you can change one of your spells known for one in your spell list of the same level. Your DM might allow you to use this feature after a long rest instead".

But, why does the party have the chance to long rest every time the party wishes?

You can't always have a doom clock running & that question is entirely irrelivant

So you think every time they need a spell they'll just camp for 24 hours? It's a variant on the 5MWD and only works better than the wizard doing the same thing if things keep popping up that the only way to bypass is via spells the sorcerer has on his list but the wizard doesn't have in his book and the party cannot find an alternative way to succeed.

Seems a bit constructed but worth exploring, for sure. I'm curious what the feed back will actually look like.

you might be missing the fact that the sorcerer has their entire class spell list available with this compared to the wizard who only has the spells in his spellbook & a significant chunk if not majority of those spells will be spells selected for inclusion of found spellbooks & found scrolls rather than spells the wizard chose.

 

[Ashrym]

You can't always have a doom clock running & that question is entirely irrelivant


you might be missing the fact that the sorcerer has their entire class spell list available with this compared to the wizard who only has the spells in his spellbook & a significant chunk if not majority of those spells will be spells selected for inclusion of found spellbooks & found scrolls rather than spells the wizard chose.

No, I'm not. I question whether only "this one specific spell on the sorcerer list and not in the wizard spell book" reflects what would happen with any frequency to justify the argument, let alone repeatedly in the same adventure.

Right now it's hypothetical and might happen, but I wouldn't be creating scenarios like that as a DM in the first place, which is where I sense some constructionism. I don't dispute that it might happen at this point either because I don't know that yet. Just a bit of healthy skepticism.

 

[tetrasodium]

No, I'm not. I question whether only "this one specific spell on the sorcerer list and not in the wizard spell book" reflects what would happen with any frequency to justify the argument, let alone repeatedly in the same adventure.

Right now it's hypothetical and might happen, but I wouldn't be creating scenarios like that as a DM in the first place, which is where I sense some constructionism. I don't dispute that it might happen at this point either because I don't know that yet. Just a bit of healthy skepticism.

The onus is on you to support your own argument. What spells are on the wizard class list but not sorcerer class list?

 

[Ashrym]

The onus is on you to support your own argument. What spells are on the wizard class list but not sorcerer class list?

That's a long list, lol.

	Name	Level	School	Casting time	Ritual	Concentration	Source
Name	Level	School	Casting time	Ritual	Concentration	Source
	Arcane Eye	4	Divination	1 Action	No	Yes	Players Handbook
	Arcane Lock	2	Abjuration	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Bigby’s Hand	5	Evocation	1 Action	No	Yes	Players Handbook
	Clone	8	Necromancy	1 Hour	No	No	Players Handbook
	Contingency	6	Evocation	10 Minutes	No	No	Players Handbook
	Create Homunculus	6	Transmutation	1 Hour	No	No	Xanathars Guide To Everything
	Drawmij’s Instant Summons (Ritual)	6	Conjuration	1 Minute	Yes	No	Players Handbook
	Evard’s Black Tentacles	4	Conjuration	1 Action	No	Yes	Players Handbook
	Fabricate	4	Transmutation	10 Minutes	No	No	Players Handbook
	Find Familiar (Ritual)	1	Conjuration	1 Hour	Yes	No	Players Handbook
	Fire Shield	4	Evocation	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Grease	1	Conjuration	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Illusory Dragon	8	Illusion	1 Action	No	Yes	Xanathars Guide To Everything
	Invulnerability	9	Abjuration	1 Action	No	Yes	Xanathars Guide To Everything
	Leomund’s Secret Chest	4	Conjuration	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Magic Jar	6	Necromancy	1 Minute	No	No	Players Handbook
	Maze	8	Conjuration	1 Action	No	Yes	Players Handbook
	Melf’s Acid Arrow	2	Evocation	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Mighty Fortress	8	Conjuration	1 Minute	No	No	Xanathars Guide To Everything
	Mordenkainen’s Faithful Hound	4	Conjuration	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum	4	Abjuration	10 Minutes	No	No	Players Handbook
	Nystul’s Magic Aura	2	Illusion	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere	6	Evocation	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere	4	Evocation	1 Action	No	Yes	Players Handbook
	Passwall	5	Transmutation	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Phantasmal Killer	4	Illusion	1 Action	No	Yes	Players Handbook
	Phantom Steed (Ritual)	3	Illusion	1 Minute	Yes	No	Players Handbook
	Prismatic Wall	9	Abjuration	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Rary’s Telepathic Bond (Ritual)	5	Divination	1 Action	Yes	No	Players Handbook
	Rope Trick	2	Transmutation	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Sequester	7	Transmutation	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Simulacrum	7	Illusion	12 Hours	No	No	Players Handbook
	Telepathy	8	Evocation	1 Action	No	No	Players Handbook
	Tenser’s Floating Disk (Ritual)	1	Conjuration	1 Action	Yes	No	Players Handbook
	Tenser’s Transformation	6	Transmutation	1 Action	No	Yes	Xanathars Guide To Everything
	Tiny Servant	3	Transmutation	1 Minute	No	No	Xanathars Guide To Everything
	Wall of Force	5	Evocation	1 Action	No	Yes	Players Handbook
	Wall of Ice	6	Evocation	1 Action	No	Yes	Players Handbook
	Wall of Sand	3	Evocation	1 Action	No	Yes	Elemental Evil
	Weird	9	Illusion	1 Action	No	Yes	Players Handbook

 

[Ashrym]

The onus is on you to support your own argument. What spells are on the wizard class list but not sorcerer class list?

Those were currently wizard exclusive spells. There are other spells that are not exclusive on the wizard list and also not on the sorcerer list.

Lack of spell list certainly isn't a problem. The spell book is where to look here.